Netcode Issues Thread

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Iie-Kyo
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Netcode Issues Thread

Post by Iie-Kyo » Thu Dec 01, 2011 09:19

Seeing how we haven't gotten much of a response off Atlus about the netcode, I'd like to make a community request to directly contact SNKP about this.

Mods: Please do not bury this in the KOF 13 Rant thread, as I feel this needs to be put up to the forefront so that SNKP is aware of the low tier netcode that is holding this game back.

I don't know where this e-mail (perhaps it's a webmaster-only mail, I don't know) leads to, but it's our best chance at getting the netcode fixed so the US can play against a bigger selection of players and further unify the community by allowing people from coast to coast to play together.

http://www.snkplaymoreusa.com/contact-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With the netcode the way it is, it's a crapshoot - some people can't play against their friends who live a 10 minute drive away from them while they can sometimes get smooth, input delay-free matches. There's no rhyme or reason as to how and why the netcode works. People can blame other people's connections and whatnot, but the fact of the matter is, as I posted on the Atlus forum is that input delay-free reasonably smooth matches are possible. GGPO has proven this. People on the WC can play against people in Korea and Japan like as though they're next to them. People in EC can do the same with their European counterparts, and we all can play against Mexicans like it's no problem.

Before you write your e-mail, please remember the following:
- SNKP DID try to implement GGPO into KOF 13, and they claimed that it conflicted with Hyperdrive Mode.
- I don't know enough about how the development process works, but I'm imagining they scrapped the GGPO idea and fell back to GSS because it was the safe, inexpensive thing to do.
- KOF 13 now sold - how well it sold is beyond me, but please tell SNKP that now that it has some money, some development time needs to be spent on improving the game. I don't know what their next big project is, as I've been told there are some things in the works, but at this moment all I can see as a consumer is a great game being held back by something every modern fighting game player, especially with a small community like KOF's needs.
- BE POLITE AND RESPECTFUL. Your message will not be heard if you're a jerk to SNKP. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is good. Flaming them for not listening to something the community has been telling them repeatedly about the past 3 or 4 months is BAD.
- Give them good usage data about your experiences. Tell them what connection you're using and give personal anecdotal evidence about your matchups. The most important part is letting them know that just because it's "smooth" does not mean it's acceptable. Give them what your pingtimes are to these people via GGPO and/or tell them about how uncommon it is to find 3-4 bar matchups. Give them the locations of these people you're playing against. Give examples of your abilities to play against these SAME people via GGPO without any problems. Don't demand GGPO to be implemented, but just tell let them know that you know good netcode is possible - if some guy who was doing this stuff in his spare time could figure out how to do it, a bunch of dedicated *and paid* coders should be able to do the same.
- I repeat, "smooth" matchups is not the main thing here - our biggest complaint is that the netplay feels like it's underwater. There is input delay - 2 frames or higher, that makes playing KOF much more difficult for us. We NEED input delay-free netcode and gameplay to be able to play and learn successfully. KOF is too sensitive to this compared to slower games like SF4 for them to get away with it.

Anyway, I'm on my way to sending my e-mail. The entire SNKP IRC channel can attest to the underwater netplay - so I'm not just a tiny minority. They're able to play input delay-free games via GGPO in any game they want. I can play a 1-frame input delay game against someone from the Netherlands with 220 ms ping and I am from Hawaii. If it can be done on GGPO, it can be done in KOF.

Thanks for reading. xmad

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by kadosho » Thu Dec 01, 2011 13:47

Great idea, just sent an email in regards to the issue. Even put a post it note about what community I represent.
Glad to help! Plus I was part of the gang that played during the turkey weekend. ^_^

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by Sogetsu » Thu Dec 01, 2011 13:59

If anyone can also make the the mail to be sent, so other people can simply "Copy - Paste - Send"

Not all of us have a really good english, and lot of people will simply not waste time writing it themselves (Maybe yes)

I don't put the mail I sent because my english is not really good (as you can read...)

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by Gunsmith » Thu Dec 01, 2011 15:02

I have already let SNKP know about the netcode, but if there is a big thread here, they will have their proof that customer are not happy.

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by ZeroSoulreaver » Thu Dec 01, 2011 15:57

This is a great idea, I really hope this leads somewhere. Honestly if it doesn't help anything then I don't understand.
It shouldn't stop you if you don't have very good English, what can it hurt to give it a shot? Hell, some born Americans don't even speak proper English and it's the main language.

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by The Master » Thu Dec 01, 2011 17:56

use the Tech support address. thats the best bet. but SNK USA really doesn't have any power in the issue, the best they can do is really forward it to the main dev team in japan

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by SonicTempest » Thu Dec 01, 2011 19:34

Aram from Atlus has posted an official response:
http://atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9811" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by kadosho » Thu Dec 01, 2011 20:25

At least a response from someone, that's good news !

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by SonicTempest » Mon Dec 05, 2011 06:35

Looks like Dreamcancel has been trying to gather some data on the netcode's performance to send it to Atlus:
http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1598.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unfortunately I think they're barking up the wrong tree. Pingtests against a random server aren't going to be useful information for anyone trying to make improvements (unless you want to tell them how awesome your connection is) - what you really need is the following information (for each of your opponents)
- Ping (i.e. open a terminal window and ping your opponent's IP address directly with a decent number of samples to get an average ping number)
- Traceroute (so you know how many hops you need to make to make a connection with your opponent)

What would also help is some comparative numbers. Ideally get someone else and test KOFXIII against a few other games (AH3, BlazBlue, SFIV, MvC3, whatever). And of course bucket data by PS3 and 360.

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by Iie-Kyo » Mon Dec 05, 2011 06:50

That's good to see the official response from Atlus. I just pray that SNKP will followup on their end and either retrofit a better netcode library or build one from the ground up with the money they earned from KOF 13's sales. It won't help their immediate profits but it's *good for the longevity of the game and SNKP's reputation* if they build a solid netcode foundation so that they can stick it in their new games and not fall backing to this inferior GSS netcode library and matchmaking system.

SNKP actually now has a closer connection to the community through the Publishers, so I think contacting them directly and/or getting your voice to be heard in a civilized manner works. It's not "online petitions". I've spent many years sitting here and bitching about KOF being the way it is amongst my friends and not doing anything about it. But now, there seems to be a big chance of a community slowly forming for KOF in the West, and I'm not just going to sit idly by and let SNKP ignore blatant issues with the way they're handling the West when it comes to game releases.

I made two long tl;dr posts on the Atlus forums that sums up my issue with the netcode, but I basically said netplay is ESSENTIAL in this day and age, especially to an initially splintered community like KOF's to grow bigger. It helps Joe Blow playing KOF 13 from Midwest Anytown USA level up and get some practice against established players in WC and EC. That guy levels up, tells a few friends about it, and those friends play against each other offline and further learn new strategy and matchups online - those friends tell other friends that hey, this game actually has good online play and an active online community to play with and talk to, and so on and so forth.

In the end it will only help SNKP in the long run if this issue is taken care of NOW and not brushed off to another game. That's it.

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Re: Do your part to let SNKP about the netcode thru e-mail

Post by ZeroSoulreaver » Tue Dec 06, 2011 13:53

Personally I'm not worried about online at the moment. Just so you know, I am not talking about anyone, just people in general. I hate how some folks believe online is everything and are so quick to rush to it when they just got the game. KOFXIII has so much offline content that I barely care about online. I'm not excusing online being terrible, but if they work on fixing it I hope they take their time getting all the bugs out because their are other things to do.

I played online a few times and it was bad, but it didn't make me hate the game. I still find KOFXIII to be the #1 fighter out today. The reason this bugs me is because the game needs as much community and support as possible. Just dismissing an entire game because of 1 bad mode is insane. Hell, I may just be old school but I like getting together with people and playing better than online modes. I don't get the online is everything mentality. Maybe it depends where you are from, can kinda understand if you have limited access to other gamers.

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Re: Netcode Issues

Post by Gunsmith » Thu Dec 08, 2011 14:57

Kyo is a monster in most KOFs and this year is no exception. KOF XII gave him some sticky crouching A, XIII has the scissor kicks of doom. With input delay it's practically unpunishable and you can mix up EX moves afterwards to beat anything that gets close.

I'll try to compare PS3 and XBOXs but ideally I need someone with both consoles and games for both.
Last night I went on PSN for the first time I caught some games with 2 bars (not good) and 3 bars (quite good but erratic - always starting lagging near end of match, giving me much to rage about because Clark can't block a tornado kick or roll through).

Oh yeah, Tornado kick 95 is unblockable with input lag, so fast!

Just remember, those MVC spammers won't get away with it offline. Consider it practice!!!

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Re: Netcode Issues Thread

Post by SonicTempest » Thu Dec 15, 2011 21:07

Iie-Kyo and I played some games on the PS3 version last night to test the netcode. We've played various GGPO KOFs, KOF2002UM, SSFIV and BlazBlue against each other before, so we do have several points of reference. Also, his ping to me is about 100ms, which the game interpreted as 2 bars.

It was definitely more playable than our experience playing KOF2002UM, but not quite as good as SSFIV. There was still enough input lag to render otherwise punishable moves unpunishable (e.g. Terry's Burn Knuckle) and prevent wakeup reversals from coming out on time. Any combos we managed to do were pretty much due to muscle memory rather than hitconfirming based off visual cues.

Hoping that the promised patch makes some substantial improvements.

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Re: Netcode Issues Thread

Post by leegray99 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 22:04

There is one slight niggle I have is that often during ranked matches I get disconnected even before the player select screen is done, yet I have not had it happen on player matches and played over 400 games now, I would say 20 percent of them had lag of some sort but it is passable, but even on red bars never get discon. Really hope the patch fixes it as the game is tops.

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Re: Netcode Issues Thread

Post by Gunsmith » Wed Jan 11, 2012 13:34

There is something off on the bar indicator.

I've had 1 bar matches where the input lag was as good as 2 bar and vice versa.

I've also noticed the bar seems to change depending on the state of network traffic?

The same guy I played for 3 hours went from 3 bars to (after midnight) 4 bars.

I really hope the patch doesn't do frameskip. This netcode is playable.

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