Ash (XII)

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Tiamat
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Ash (XII)

Post by Tiamat » Mon May 04, 2009 17:55

Looks like no thread for Ash yet. Maybe someone who's used him a bit can add a command list and some other info.

random impressions from vids I've seen:
fireball DM sucks, super slow startup with seemingly no invulnerability
his normal throw looks like it does stronger damage than most (maybe I'm just seeing things)
fireball special still looks good. the C version looks like it takes less time to come out than in previous games? (maybe?)

official combos:
http://game.snkplaymore.co.jp/official/ ... sh_cm.html

misc combos:
cBcB > d_u+K/somersault DM
C cB (this is a link)
Jump D -> C -> b+B -> A,B,C,D -> d,u+D

---------------Following Edit by Gunsmith------------------



Ash Crimson
Ash Crimson

v1.08 (defence flowchart tweaked / lag tactics / b-f C note / qcf x2 K note/ ash vs ash note) v1.07 (rethinking defence tactics) v1.06 (another combo) 1.05 (ABCD flick trick and combos sorted into easy med hard levels) v1.04 (air attacks updated, d-u B priority note)

Ash takes a bit of getting used to but is quite a formidable character. Most play him defensively but if your opponent isn't that fast you can get right in and start playing mind games.

NOTATION

f = Forward

b = Back

d = Down

j = Jump

h = Hop

c = Crouch / Low

A B C D = LP LK HP HK

P = A or C

K = B or D

qc = quarter circle i.e. swivelling the control by 90 degrees either f or b

hc= half circle 180 degrees

Remember that button presses are in CAPITALS and movements are in lower case, so if you see "db D" that means Down-Back + D

COLOURS

A = White Hair, Red and White Clothes

B = Salmon Pink Hair, Blue and White Clothes

C = Pink Hair, Red and Pink Clothes

D = Ginger Hair, Green Clothes

MOVES

NORMALS

Ash will mostly be using c .B , b .B / .D and c .D He relies more on his specials.

.A - His little slap can be useful for maintaining your position without walking back (just hit it repeatedly while charging) Also good for defending against rushdown when you're pinned in the corner.

c .A - Ash's crouch .A is quick and easy to spam but note inflicts 25 damage while c .B does 30... note that c .A needs a tiny pause to cancel into flashkick .K but instantly cancels into sonicboom .A

c .B - Much longer than most other characters, his poke tool. However, it doesn't cancel, you need to chain it to c A to cancel into any special moves. Can catch landing opponents.

b .B / .D - looks like an overhead but isn't :(, which allows you to charge his Ventoise fireballs. .B goes forward while .D goes back. Whenever you do any of his spinning kicks, especially b .D , you should then be charging his sonicboom .P, but you should then move the lever to db so you can charge his flashkick .K too.

c .C - this move is weird. It seems to have a very low hit box so when it hits as anti air, it actually hits them as they land, thus combo-able. Needs more testing.

.C - seems quite solid and could be used as anti-air, but needs more testing. His CC starter.

c .D - his sweep. Cancel into sonicboom -A- for pressure if close.

j .B - this is quick and has good range. I use by vertically hopping in front of cornered opponents before going into the usual pinning strat.

j .A - probably his best jump in attack for mind games as it hits fairly deep. Do it early with a hyper hop to hit those online with input lag.

j .C - this is good for air to air but also good for jump ins because Ash looks like he's about to hit the ground, which can fool the opponent into thinking your going to empty hop.

j .D - nice jump kick but if timed too late will whiff. This could be to your advantage if your quick enough, so it's virtually an empty hop in...

SPECIALS

sonicboom .P - The A version is quicker but the C version is like 2-in-1, as the green mist that forms can hit jumpers and nullify opponents' fireballs before Ash sends his own. Mix up use between A and C, making sure there's no space to jump over. Note when using C version, while he's conjuring up the flames, Ash can be hit.

flashkick .K - Good old anti air. One second charge. Note that you can inflict 140 damage if you connect c Bx2, c A, d u B (less if you use D version!) as the move fully hits the opponent, something to bear in mind when using his d-u K... Also note the D version goes forward quite a bit so beware of using this as it may well go under the opponent as they jump. As you're sitting, there may be occasions when the opponent aims for your head but flies over, wait a little and you can d-u from behind. Note that I've seen the B version knocked out by Clark's sweep, which means it's not invincible. Confirmed: B version not invincible at all (Need to try D version), you can't use this as a wake up anti air. I would recommend either blocking or attempting c B instead.

DMs

qcf x2 .K - good for combos and anti air. Note, Benimaru beat it with his j .D , which means either he has high priority j D (quite likely) or Ash's DM has poor priority - this needs testing.

qcf x2 .P - don't use! Ash can swept out of this, and the ball can be rolled past. Far too slow.

.A, .B , .C , .D - this DM can be used as a counter, but really is best for CC combos. If you're having trouble executing, try rolling your fingers over the buttons like a piano, or run your forefinger's nail against the A button and flick it across A B C and D real quick. God help you if you're using a pad.

COMBOS

His staple combo is c .B , c .A x2, d-u .B - note there must be a tiny pause after the c .A

A far safer combo is c .B , c .A , sonicboom .A which you can follow up with few pressure options.

EASY LEVEL COMBOS

c .B, c .A, flashkick .B [117]

c .B x2, c .A, flashkick .B [140]

j .D , c .B , c .A , flashkick .B [178]

c .B, c .A, qcf x2 .K

corner: j D, c .B x2, c A, d-u B [201]

.C, CD, qcf x2 .K

j .D, c .C, CD, flashkick .B [230]

Obviously, you can charge down as soon as you're in the air and do the CD while you are still crouching, but the timing is hard to practice: the j D --> c C is instant, but there's a tiny pause before you can hit the CD, and another before you hit the d-u B. The great thing about this combo is you can do it mid screen so use it to punish fireballers.

CC: qcf x2 .K [430]

MEDIUM

CC: (corner) C, b-f C, C, CD, b-f C, d-u D [369] (D takes more than B this time, and the C makes more damage)

CC: (corner) C, b-f C, c C, CD, qcfx2 K [415]

CC: (corner) C, b-f C, C, CD, b-f C, qcfx2 K [408-459] (deeper the DM the more hits)

CC: (corner) b-f C, d-u B, A, .B ,C,D, d-u D [423] (yes, without the c C to start, it takes MORE)

CC: (corner) b-f C, b-f C, A, .B ,C,D, d-u D [458] (455 if you add C)

j D, c C, CD, qcfx2 B [305-379] - The only difficulty is the timing between the j D and c C!

(corner) c C -> CD -> b,f+C -> qcfx2+K/(ABCD -> d,u+D)... (qcfx2+K does more damage).

j D, c .B , c A, b f A, c A, d-u D / .B [D=236] [B=243]

j. C -> c .B -> c A -> b, f+A -> c A -> qcf x2+K

HARD

(corner) j D -> c A -> b,f+A -> c .B -> c A -> b,f+A -> qcfx2+K

(corner) CC -> b-f C, C, b-f A, C, CD, qcfx2 K [480-507] [471-502 if you start with C)

The timing is tough to control if you don't have the nerve. There is a slight delay after standing C before you can cancel into b-f A (or b-f C).

From KOF Union's Combo video----

Jump D -> C -> b+B -> A,B,C,D -> d,u+D [379]

CC -> b,f+A -> CD -> qcb .B -> b,f+A (ends CC) -> forward run CD -> A, .B ,C,D -> b,f+C -> d,u+D – Works anywhere. But for the forward run CD you may be hitting the opponent at the wrong time, so you should do d,u+D directly instead.

Corner: CC -> b,f+A -> C -> A, .B ,C,D -> b+D -> CD (ends CC) -> qcb+A -> b,f+C -> d,u+D – Corner combo. Theoretically a CD can be done after the qcb+A but it couldn’t come out. Perhaps it can with simple motion, and a loop of CD->b,f+A could be done that way.

b,f+A -> forward jump D -> C -> b,f+A -> C -> CD -> b,f+A ->qcfx2+D – Aside from the b,f+A at the start what happens after that forms a solid combo. CD -> b,f+C is too far away to connect, and for qcfx2+D it’s better to hit the opponent at a lower point for more hits.

PRESSURE -----------------------------------------

DEFENCE

If they get hit by b-f C in the air and recovery roll, do b-f A to hit them. If they don't, b-f C or rush in. Should an opponent jump over, and you don't have the charge for d-u K, remain calm and try to use c .B , which if connected, can then be comboed.

Recovery rolling opponents are a bit of a hassle for Ash, as you're eventually left with the choice of whether to throw a fireball or not. However, in the corner is no problem as you can hit them out of it.

Defence Flowchart

1. (1) b-f P* ---> 2 / 3 / 4
2. (2) They get hit in air: if they recovery roll ---> 4 /5. If they don't---> 1 / 5
3. (3) They block ---> 1 / 4 / 5
4. (4) Wait and prepare Anti Air: d-u K / C / A / c C
5. (5) b B to move closer or simply walk and D, b D / b B/ c B to poke till you're ready for 1 /4

*b-f C can be rolled past, b-f A can be jumped over. If they predict which one you are going to use, you're dead, so be unpredictable!

OFFENCE

Once you've knocked over the opponent you should rush forward and pressure. Unfortunately as he doesn't have an overhead, he can't really do much but tick damage and hope they jump into a d-u K. Occasionally you can fool them into getting hit with his Stand D or B as they hit low. Here are your main options:

* D ---> b B ---> poke with c B...
* D ---> b D ---> b f C / f C
* b B ---> poke with c B
* b B ---> b-f C
* THROW
* c A ---> A ---> b-f A --> c D ---> b-f A
* c B ---> c D ---> b-f P
* Any of the above but without b-f P and just WAIT, ready for d-u K.
* j A / empty hop --> c B ---> c A whatever / THROW
* Block a counter

I recommend not using b-f A when poking, unless you're sure it's going to hit, because it can be jumped over. b-f C is slower but protects you from jumpers, although it's actually vulnerable at the very start, but once it's released, even if they roll you're free to hit them (edit: needs further testing).

Ash's new (stolen orochi) powers have given him Orochi Shermie's kisses, which can annoy opponents at various ranges. qcb A/B/C/D from close to far- the guess is up to you- use A when you anticpate jumpers and otherwise where you think the opponent will move to next. Otherwise, qcb X (to where they are) and run forward to apply pressure with his b .B / c D. If you want to play Guile style, your optimal range is mid screen, where Ash can sit and charge his d u K or b f P and throw in the occasional kiss. Frankly I think it's a waste of time.

When you're feeling like applying direct pressure mixup empty hops with his low B combos.

BUFFER

qcf A, qcf .B = A, qcfx2 .B

GUARD CRUSH

Don't forget that you can hold down while charging CD, so you can do (corner) fully charged CD, CD--> d-u .B /qcfx2 B connects

LAG TACTICS

As with any game that suffers from lag input, rushdown is the key to success. Hop and immediately press D, poke with c B, and repeat till you can squeeze in a combo. When they start blocking, start throwing.

ASH VS ASH

A good tactic I've witnessed first hand is that when one Ash has knocked over the other and then sets up b-f C, the other Ash simply executes d-u D, which knocks out the b-f C (before the fireball has come out).

Because d-u K doesn't have invincible start up, Ash can do b-f A as the other Ash gets up, and then hyper j D, which should hit just after the b-f A. If Ash doesn't know about the invicibility issue, he'll try d-u K, and thus get nailed (sigh).

ACTION: Let's have a look at some Ash gameplay. You'll see a fairly aggressive Ash with quite brave use of jump C as pressure against Raiden and by the end, as I said, too much fireballing leads to being jumped over.

Last edited by Tiamat on Tue May 05, 2009 03:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by SonicTempest » Tue May 05, 2009 01:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mIFoV5ad-Y
@ 1:15

Looks like Ash' collision box on his fireball DM is kind of funky...Andy rolled and it looks like he should have ended up behind him but he didn't, and got nailed by the DM.

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by Tiamat » Tue May 05, 2009 02:18

That does look odd. I've seen Robert cD him out of it pretty cleanly in another video though, I'm sure Andy could have done the same.

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by PenPen » Wed May 06, 2009 16:32

I totally missed out on him, my bad! Aside from the loss of some of his old moves and his new O. Shermie kiss thingie, it feels like most of his stuff are unchanged.

b+B - Forward kick, links from weak attacks, but can't seem to cancel into anything, or link into his flash kick DM like 2k3.
b+D - Back kick, goes pretty fast like 2k3/XI.

b,f+P - A version is weak fierball, C version is strong doublecross fierball. I don't think C version works like the old 2k3 version where if you hit the fireball, it becomes the A version. A version does link from weak attacks if the distance is close enough.
d,u+K - D version, you can probably do like 3 weak attacks and do his flash kick. It's pretty good, but seems to bring him further forward than before, which means you may need to semi-anticipate this to make it a successful anti-air.
hcb+A/B/C/D - O.Shermie kiss but with his ghey flames. It's not really fast, but it does stay longer in the air than O. Shermie's. And it's not really that big either, I had a successful roll past these thingies.

qcfx2+P - Seems useless since it takes him a while to hold the ball of flames, and release it. The ball does gain momentum though, so he has that going for him. But once the opponent correctly judges the distance from afar, they can roll past the thing, which is what I usually did. Good for pressure, but wayyyy too slow to be useful unless in wakeup situations. The ball does have a hitbox while he's holding it however. He is vulnerable down low as well.
qcfx2+K - This is the only DM that you'll probably be using. It's fast, links from weak attacks and is basically a triple flash kick. As said, b+B doesn't link or cancel into this from what I tried at least, so don't do this combo, just do it safely with weak attacks into this DM.
A,B,C,D - Not that useful really. It's not that easy to come out, and you don't get the no charging property anymore.

Combos:
(corner) Jump D -> Low A -> b,f+A -> Low B -> Low A -> b,f+A -> qcfx2+K
(corner) Low C -> CD -> b,f+C -> qcfx2+K/(ABCD -> d,u+D)...the qcfx2+K ender does more damage.

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by SonicTempest » Wed May 06, 2009 17:47

I think his sweep is cancellable now (I don't remember it being cancellable in XI).

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by Tiamat » Thu May 07, 2009 04:43

Thanks for the info PenPen. Sounds like what I expected to hear.

SonicTempest wrote:I think his sweep is cancellable now (I don't remember it being cancellable in XI).


I think so as well, saw it in a video. Was from a CC combo though, so I thought that might have let him do something unusual. Be pretty sweet for him if he really can do it anytime though. sweep > A fireball would be nice string I bet

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by Tiamat » Mon May 11, 2009 20:38

ash b_f+C is interesting/glitchy

check out 3:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hremxy4Z ... annel_page

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by AshCrimson » Mon May 25, 2009 10:31

The hit box for his b-f+C is pretty large vertically and horizontally. However in that video it hit that far because terry was starting his burning knuckle and was moving forward. Speaking of the hitbox for that move, its very hard for people to roll or jump against it I noticed. The weak point of the move is that you can get hit during its start up with a fast move like db-f+P with andy.

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by AshCrimson » Sat Jun 27, 2009 14:51

Mid screen he can do j. C -> d. C -> CD -> d, u+B

Seems like his b+D is very useful. I tend to use this as a wake up move against low attacks cause he hops off the ground almost instantly. Can possibly do qcfx2 +K after if it counters.

Also since his d. D is cancellable, I used to cancel to b, f+P but later on it seems much better to cancel into qcb+A or B. Caution when doing this cause if they know you're gonna cancel to this, you can eat a super =P This works particularly well against a cornered opponent.

Not much new for him that I've found other than j. C -> d. B -> d+A -> b, f+A -> d. A -> qcf x2+K

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by Tiamat » Sun Jun 28, 2009 01:15

you can link a d+A after his A projectile?! LOL

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by PenPen » Tue Jun 30, 2009 17:44

Yeah, you can. It comes out really fast.

And I read that his ABCD DM has a 1-frame startup, which means it's pretty much instant. This applies to Shen Woo's SSJ as well.

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by Clouth » Sun Jul 26, 2009 08:14

So pretty much after 2A its 236x2k with meter and 2-8B without? Since B does more dmg from far away than D for some reason. I think 2-8B does more dmg but less hits than D. B has two hits if im not mistaken and D has three, but you only get one hit out of either after the 2A so it B unless theres something better to fallow up with without meter?

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by PenPen » Sat Aug 01, 2009 07:23

Clouth wrote:So pretty much after 2A its 236x2k with meter and 2-8B without? Since B does more dmg from far away than D for some reason. I think 2-8B does more dmg but less hits than D. B has two hits if im not mistaken and D has three, but you only get one hit out of either after the 2A so it B unless theres something better to fallow up with without meter?


That's pretty much his only combo from a low B. I forgot whether his b+D would connect however.

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by mr crimson » Mon Aug 03, 2009 23:42

I actually have a bit of a question, does Ash seem to have incredibly good priority? He's stupid-easy to combo with, with incredibly stable game, but it seems to me like any of his D moves, of course except for the sweep, happen to have very good priority, and rarely get outmatched by much, sans something monstrous like Iori's kicks.

I'm asking because I am relatively new into the series (didn't start seriously playing until KoF XI), and I've been meaning to just figure out exactly how priorities work, and what the safe frame advantages are with him.

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Re: Ash (XII)

Post by Gunsmith » Fri Aug 21, 2009 16:47

The Stand D seems to have quite good priority but maybe I was lucky enough not to face any brave DPs.

I consolidated some notes I've made while playing plus what's here.

http://orochinagi.com/kof-xii-vook/kof-xii-ash-crimson

credits are on the main page.

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