Can you teach a Fighting Game?

[Xenogias]

Eczema: NO, FGs are easy to play yet diffcult to master. No other gaming genre features that much movement of the hands + thinking. No FPS, RPGs, racing games, sim games can surpass this.

I think the people who play hardcore RTS like Starcraft or Warcraft 3 will disagree - the button taps per second of world class players on those games are *astounding*.

While arguably a lot more of it is mechanical in nature (i.e. click base 3 times to build 3 units), there is still a remarkable amount of information to process in those games when a battle occurs - a top class player will not only be able to march his hero with pixel perfect position in to slaughter his enenmy, he'll also be able to switch quickly back to his base to build the reinforcements he knows he'll need.

In fighting games, however, there is so much incredible emphasis on timing - yes, move y might beat fireball x, but only on 2 particular frames, and when move y is done by doing 2 halfcircle motions, you're going to have to be unbelievably precise to pull it off consistently.

As for the general topic on hand:
I do believe you can teach fighting games. Certain information is universal - knowing that K' has an unblockable fireball bug, for example, can benefit everyone, and is unlikely to be discovered by anyone other than the adventurous, or the expert player hunting for gameplay bugs.

As for something as nebulous as play style though - yes, obviously when someone tries to teach you a fighting game, he will try and teach you his style. Let me paint the analogy - it's like asking a world famous portrait artist to teach you how to draw sunset pictures. Sure he'll be able to teach you some basics, but he can only teach what he knows, and what he has found effective for him. I think it's fine trying to learn the playing style of someone - it obviously works if he's beaten you with it (which is why I assume you'd want to learn from him in the first place). On the long hard road to self discovery of your own style, I think it's fine to see the perspective of others who've found theirs already.

Probably the best post I have read here so far.

I whole heartedly agree with this statement. I've been playing CvS2 competitively for about 5 years now. And the things I have learned and picked up from others in communities like SRK have really helped me out, now, I haven't played anyone like Biggzie (South Atlantic Division's best player - He lives close to me here in Florida).

But my friend Robert used to be Florida state champ in CvS2 till he quit the game, though he still plays me in it when ever I want him to play (thats right, I beg for him to kick my ass). There are only 4-5 ppl in the state of Florida that can beat me in CvS2, im including Biggzie even though i've never played the guy, and ranks and titles dont usually mean a thing to me, but if hese up there, then hese up there I guess.

My friend Robert, I actually tried to pick things up from him, the guy would toss my ass around, the same way I'd do to 97% of the people that I have dominated in CvS2. And although hese taught me many things (from his way of playing). Hese still the master of his sword (meaning, theres no way I can surpass Robert - i've played him over and over).

He taught me how throwing out limbs can give you an advantage when you got someone cornered, and how you can pressure ppl with small jumps. And untill this day, I still cant beat him. So if I cant beat Robert using his own style, that means only one thing - I have to figure out another way to take him down, using the things hese taught me, and up untill now, the closest i've come to beating him is 2 out of 3 rounds. I keep getting closer using the things hese taught me.

I guess you pretty much need to build your own technique, now that I think about it, it is kinda like real fighting. Your sensei teaches you the proper ways of using certain techniques - its up to you how to use them.

The most vital part however, is not the things you learn, but how you use them, how fast you react, Thats why you see many players procrastinating in games like Tekken 5 and CvS2. They are playing really carefully because they dont want to end up making mistakes or doing something that will get them punished, they know when and when not to use these moves.

But even when their not procrastinating, i've seen some really mean and well played out rush down games. I can immitate them easily, but using them effectively is what is most important.

And even though I understand what the hell is going on. I am still not a "Top Tier Player". I just know these things, but i've yet to use them effectively or in a certain manner/fashion. I can still teach everything that I know to a newbie, but I would never teach him how I play.

The best thing to do, is to also never play a certain character repeatadly, because if theres one thing i've learned - my friend Robert can pick up your characters in his first fight.

Some other things in fighting games are just universal, like modified special moves, they can be found in pretty much any 2D Fighter...

2k2 Vice (while on ground) , u/f, u, d+hp+lp modified HSDM (in short jump too).

or Robert's modified dragon kick, exactly performed the same way as Cable''s modified grenade toss.

You have to learn the basic elements of a fighting game first, 2D Fighting Games usually have the same exploits.

[Guest]

Oh I am so sorry. I was not born an Amercian or British (like you obviously) so my English sucks.

Since I don't want to argue with you, so please kindly stop clogging my thread.
There are other places for you. This thread is not part of it.

American? well for starters, america is not a country, it is a continent divided in various parts, you could very well claim that people from cuba, for example, are americans.

Anyway, obviously, english is not my native language.

You can choose to 'not' argue with me, that seems fine, but I doubt I'm going to 'not' post because you simply decide you do not want me to do so.

[Archedgar]

!*@&*$@&$%

That last post is mine...

[r3v3n4nT]

American? well for starters, america is not a country, it is a continent divided in various parts, you could very well claim that people from cuba, for example, are americans.

stop being an idiot, u know exactly what he meant and u still decided to argue on that like sum 7 years old, grow up.

[Empyrian]

Since my views are perhaps skewed towards the wrong direction, then I must ask, if it can be taught, who can teach?

[Blastrezz]

meh..... why didn't I come up with this earlier :roll:

I figured it out:

Newbies most probably won't learn too much of the deepness of fighting game from "pros" or in general people that are 6 classes above them in skill.

Among other things I remembered some facts of my own past and most of the time you learn the most stuff (apart from the already discussed basics) from people slightly better or at most only one level above your skill.
If skill level between the players doesn't differ too much the less-skiled player will see his opponent is better but not unstoppable. He can observe his opponent making some mistakes but also sees some slightly more advanced game mechanics than his own.
I think this is the constellation where people in games learn the most.

On the other side a total through and through pro Japanese player that really knows it all and even ocv's in Japan a lot of times won't be able to teach a total newbie how to advance because the pro's skill is so far above the other person's that his tips and strategies are of FAR too advanced level and the newbie cannot execute them.

Shit, this was bad English.... :-/ I hope you understood. If not please write so, I will try to say it again more clearly.

--Blast

[Archedgar]

Your english was fine.

[Xenogias]

I agree with what you said about some techniques that are just far too advanced to be taught to someone.

Im goinna use Roll Cancelling as an example. It took me MONTH to get one Roll Cancel move to come out. The easiest shit for me to RC before that was the Taunts, because it didn't really involve any directional motions.

And I remember there was a point I thought i'd never master how to Roll Cancel - even though RC'ing is a common exploit its still used in regular/competitive play. Unless RC's are banned at the time. But after month (nearly a year) I finally mastered Roll Cancelling.

The reason why it took me so fricken long to get it was mainly because I was using the PS2 controllers and not a mod/arcade stick (which is easier to perform on). The other think that took me a while to master was Sakura's shoshosho... But I easily mastered that on a D-Pad.

[Empyrian]

Newbies most probably won't learn too much of the deepness of fighting game from "pros" or in general people that are 6 classes above them in skill.

There are that many classes of players? ;p

To make things simple, I just classify players as:

1) Those who have no chance of beating me.
2) Those that have a chance to beat me and vice versa.
3) Those that I got no chance to beat.
(Hmmm, I remembered someone here said this b4 but I forgot who he was... >_<)
Personally, I learnt more watching rather than asking. Hence my previous statements of you can learn but you can not be taught.

When people teach you, you would assume that they will teach you unconditionally with no reservations. However that is not always the case.

It depends on whether the person is selfish or maybe it just can't be explained well in words.

When you watch them play, assuming that they are serious and not goofing around, you see and learn more stuff. The psychological stuff.

Now if you are going to teach someone, would you teach the combo timings or vague and hard to teach psychological warfare or poking/zoning?

[Blastrezz]

Newbies most probably won't learn too much of the deepness of fighting game from "pros" or in general people that are 6 classes above them in skill.

There are that many classes of players? ;p

To make things simple, I just classify players as:
(....)

Well, I was over exaggerating of course.
I was comparing skill level of a "newbie" and a "beat's (almost) everyone there is"-player. Which very well can seem for both of them like x number of levels higher.
Your classifying of players is of course ok. I might add the "total newbie" class as number one in the beginning and a "pro" class (Asian players like the Japanese in 3S or the Korean in T5) at the end.

Personally, I learnt more watching rather than asking.

Haha, me too. No other chance here in Germany than watching and learning from matchvideos. Although I for sure also learnt some stuff from my few opponents. Even if only passively.

Now if you are going to teach someone, would you teach the combo timings or vague and hard to teach psychological warfare or poking/zoning?

Well, I taught or tried to teach four or five KoF newbies so far. Unfortunately for various reasons none of them will ever practice and play with the enthusiasm I'd like them to have. But that's more an issue of the German BemU scene in general.
When I "teach" I mostly teach the gameplay basics. As I've said before, the facts. If a character has "good moves" to "spam out" (kind of an explanation for "poking" to a newbie) then I mention it. I tell them about the strengths and weaknesses of the general gameplay of the characters and their special/super moveset. I "teach" BnB combos if the player at least got the basics at some point but I never or maybe only once reached the point to tell my fellow KoF mate some in-depth stuff. Also this was the point I was mentioning before I guess, where the player was able and already beginning to develope his own style.
Like that it worked ok.

Then finally the fun, enthusiasm, readiness to spend time with the game, practice and engaging in versus combat is the key.

--Blast

[Persona]

I learn from dreaming new KOF tactics when I sleep!

And some of them actually work.

[Empyrian]

Well, at least most of the guys here acknowledged that they learnt more IRL than from the internet. I am glad. ;p

Not surprising since 80% of character faqs are rubbish made by fanboys/people who played against CPU/an aspiring new user of a character, etc.

Rarely do you get gems from character faqs made by a single person.

Even in forums, people either don't teach everything or teach nonsense.

[Shiny]

.......

What is with you and Richter?

In any case...any fighting game...whether with competition or lack of, I learned it. Trial and error. What works against one person may not work against the other.

Especially some of those controller motions. SNK made me learn some of the more difficult ones (DMs and the like).

[Archedgar]

Well, at least most of the guys here acknowledged that they learnt more IRL than from the internet. I am glad. ;p

Not surprising since 80% of character faqs are rubbish made by fanboys/people who played against CPU/an aspiring new user of a character, etc.

Rarely do you get gems from character faqs made by a single person.

Even in forums, people either don't teach everything or teach nonsense.

Wow, this is so much filth and lies. Truly Empyrian, way to discourage like 95% of the people who are reading these forums.

I'd say all of us, at one point or another, have sat down to read a FAQ or a moveset online on a forum or something along those lines.

I've learned a lot from reading FAQ's and forums, basically, if you keep an open mind and 'listen' to other's experience, you will learn a lot.

Seriously, to say that people only post nonsense(mostly) online , in general, is a horrid statement.


Edit:

I post on gameplay forums to try and 'share' what I have learned throughout the time I have experienced 'that'.

At one point, I knew nothing, and I read and learned, and then through others experiences and my own, I was able to improve. That is the idea of discussion. I'd say its my turn to impart the 'ideas' and 'situations' so others may perceive it in their own way, and match it up with their own personal experience as I did, at one point.

If they improve SLIGHTLY in one thing from reading what I post, be it, offense, defense, or raw damage, then, as Scott Houston once said : 'I win'.

[SonicTempest]

While ideas and strategies can be imparted, the actual skill in using them and implementing them effectively is entirely left up to the player, and this represents a major portion of learning to play a fighting game.

I don't deny that FAQs and the like can play a sizeable role in learning a game (they certainly helped me a good deal) but they won't help you become a good player just by reading them.