Syo Hayate

Strats, combos, technical discussion.
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Post by Slapper Joe » Fri Jun 02, 2006 00:33

The guy is better than Momoko, Athena and Shingo and there is no doubting that. But he'd need to do at least 20% more damage on all his moves (bar multirang) to hit mid-tier.

My Syo throws a lot and thats a combination of option select with b+C and my dislike of crouching with him at close range. My Momoko and Elizabeth probably throw more, but those are planned. Syo's are just a by-product of how I play, I notice everyones Griffon has unplanned generic throws too so there could be ranges at play.

highLDM will juggle off anything, it just has limited applications because of it's range and the time it takes for him to zoom forward. Of course it's great when right next because it's basically instant. TRUE WIN is just interesting since they never leave their feet, even though there is a trip. I have wondered if that trip has something going for it since it is so damn awkward, slow and short.

I basically never use the A zoom so I can't tell you if it's different descent, shame he doesn't have the qcb+C ender off it like his previous incarnations.

I guess I'm alone on this but I think Syo is the deepest character on this year's roster.

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Post by J]-[UN » Fri Jun 02, 2006 17:22

He pretty much gets creamed by characters like Iori/Kyo who can just keep jumpCDing...

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Post by AcidicEnema » Fri Jun 02, 2006 19:20

Ionno, the whole idea is not to get in a position where they can jump CD you repeatedly, and once in there get the hell out with a CD counter or roll. Same thing Duolon vs. Clark.

Not just jump CD's. Quite a few moves can beat Hayate's uppercut clean, e.g., Kula/Malin jump C, and those match ups require more distance oriented strats. I wouldn't say Hayate gets owned in them tho.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Sat Jun 03, 2006 05:20

Found out yesterday Syo can beat Ralf at his own game. Syo's d+C will win clean against Ralf's in almost any situation. Hop->drop can work really, really well if you manage to build momentum up.

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Post by Tel » Mon Jun 05, 2006 17:44

It's really not hard to see why Hayate is bottomfeeding. He takes loads of damage, gets stunned easily, and his own damage capability isn't that hot. He's not a hopeless case, but the first few times I used him I stuffed him first even before I knew the tier list. Hayate doesn't really have anything for sustained pressure. Even his light attacks are fairly slow, so it's not very spammable. At least Silver has a huge hitbox for his A attacks.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:07

Update time for the only character in XI that matters:

* Had suspected it for a while, thankfully home version can confirm that the damage in the mook for his supers is wrong. Homerang is 40(52.) Multirange appears to be 32(40)
* j.D, c.B, s.D, qcb+C (sc on 2nd hit) -> A homerang is about half a bar.

Arrange Mode changes.

c.A looks a bit slower. No big loss.
His jumping has been totally overhauled. He jumps lower, has worse acceleration getting off the ground and doesn't float as long. These are all good things, being able to do d+A a lot closer to the ground is great. Will allow for AGGRESSIVE air boomerangs as well.
You can now d+P during backhop. Along with the better hop d+P's (A in particular) this give him a whole new avenue. No huge damage, but wakeup overheads at last.
c.D -> LDM no longer works (even when used as a juggle filler and not as a trip->catch.) Anything into c.D no longer chains. Normals are all the same speed, hit stun is just a lot less on normals (c.B, s.D looks character specific as well now. Stick to c.B, s.C)
Low LDM is now a juggle starter!!!! Into knee/boomerang or even into high LDM. And yes you can waste 5 levels and both stocks in one combo (spaced just a bit away from the wall.)
His walk speed seems ever so slightly faster as well. He also suffer from the same lower hitstun on jump-in attacks as everyone. Crossup air qcb+k (which is my main jump-in tool) remains untouched and still allows lights or close s.C to combo after.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Sat Jun 24, 2006 08:43

Arcade Mode:
Nearish corner: Jump-in D, c.B, close D, qcb+C (2hit)->A Homerang, <wiff A>, High LDM - The A is to cancel boomerang catch, not neccesary but looks better. Replace with c.D for even more style.

Arrange Mode:
crossup (air) qcb+k, close A, close C, dp+D(3 hits)->low LDM, Multirang->high LDM. 33hits, 75ish percent.
b+C, Multirang->Low LDM, dp+D(1 hit)->High LDM. 29hits, 80% or so on counter. Drop the knee and it does the same damage but becomes really easy to do.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:25

More arrange changes.

All 5 hits of dp+K will now hit people on the ground (arcade is only 4.) Therefore more damage and an easier DC (can only SC off b version.)
Boomerang looks like it does 1 or 2 less damage.
(air) d+A has a bigger hit box, d+C might as well.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Fri Aug 11, 2006 05:08

Someone should have told me this was on the second page... All this stuff applies to arcade, dunno about arrange.

*Ground qcb+K cancels (and hits) on normal moves that land as anti-air on counter. It'll also cancel+hit off corner resets that use f+C or df+C. Can't find anything that allows a continuous stream of resets like Oswald.

*His stand E. is stupid good. Great speed and recovery with a better-than-it-looks hitbox and it is active for all of the frames his fist sticks out. When you consider Syo doesn't mind people far away it is better than Jazu's and could be argued as a better all-around move than Jenet's.

*lowLDM, highLDM does juggle in/near corner. Easier with less hits beforehand as the lowLDM has a habit of pulling the opponent further out of the corner depending on how deep it hits. Only reciently found this out, even though the Evolution vid has this.

*lowLDM won't juggle after anything that knocks into the air at all, unlike in arrange mode that allows juggles ending in a low multirang->lowLDM. It and the A boomerang are the only things that will hit after a long ground chain (eg. c.B, close.C, f+C.)

*The jump b+C has huge amounts of stun on hit. Jump b+C, c.D, highLDM works. Anyone who knows how slow the c.D is by itself has to be impressed with that.

*He is one of the few of the cast that can cancel his j.E on hit or block into air specials. Like the engine dictates, if these hit on counter then the special can hit. But blocked j.E's into air qcb+K causes all sorts of fun. You can't get any crossups with this though, shame.. And again, like all j.E's it can be blocked crouching.

*Like I mentioned elsewhere, a backturned homerang will cause the opponent to be knocked TOWARDS you when it hits. You can then do highLDM if the bounce near your head, or more interesting juggles if the homerrang hits one counter. Backturned homerang, backturned pirouet hits suprisingly well

*It is possible (but extremely hard) to get only the 2nd hit of the qcb+C to hit on an airborne opponent (as anti-air or as a juggle.) This will cause the same effect as if you supercancelled on the second hit, and will send the opponent flying straight up in the air instead of away.

*When hitting with a close-range homer or multirang there are a few frames he can't use a boomerang attack again while he is in the process of grabbing the boomerang. These can be removed by using a normal attack during this animation and straight away cancelling into the boomerang attack.

*The juggling after an (air)qcb+K that is part of a juggle is pretty erratic. But as I've mentioned before, the lower the dropdown hits, the easier the followup (usually pirouet, sometimes qcb+C if spaced really well) hits

*He actually has a 100% combo against the lower stamina characters. And it does work quite well after a down. And it is relatively easy. And I have done it in vs play. Still awaiting T.T. to give me the combos he wants capped for that community project so things like that can be put down. Shouldn't take too long for anyone keen to work it out.

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Post by AcidicEnema » Thu Aug 24, 2006 19:11

Man, I know you said that his LDM juggles off everything, but I wish you'd specifically said that his LDM is all-juggle. Only realised this after playing around on the PS2. All the normal all juggle nonsense+ the LDM's huge hitbox makes a lot of stuff possible.

- Stand A/B anti-hop> LDM. hop B> LDM. Die Oswald. Die.

- d.B>s.B>qcb+K*2> s.C (far or close, doesn't matter)> LDM = no fuss no muss 70%, no skill stock, anywhere on the screen combo off a down B.

- d.B>d.D> LDM is pretty important against some matches where Hayate can only counter some moves with a down B. Hayate v. Terry comes to mind.

- air d+P *can* launch into LDM in midscreen, though it seems slightly easier with d.A (which has a steeper descent).

- I'm not quite sure how you're using the stand E, but I don't find it nearly as abusable as Jazu's. Range and recovery come to mind as the main reasons.

- Er... if you're not going to post the 100% combo, would you be so inclined as to PM it to me? Unless its the double LDM combo in the corner, which isn't 100% AFAIK.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Fri Aug 25, 2006 04:48

I think I mentioned elsewhere that I don't like the term 'all-juggle' since it isn't really. But I though I had made it clear enough that it shared those properties. Oh well.

As for punishing with LDMs I tend to use them just by themselves. hLDM is 1-2 frame startup so it is great against anything close and stuffs meaties. lLDM is just as fast as any other LDM over the first 1/2 - 2/3rds of the screen the low part is just another bit of a bonus.

Try his E more. It's recovery is better than Jazu's. Hitbox is from behind his head to well in front of his fist. Kyo's simply won't hop B me anymore because of it (it is good enough to beat out Gato and Kula as well, needs to be done at the same time though which isn't that easy.) Sadly the Kyo's have moved onto ranged hop Ds against him which it doesn't do well against.

I didn't want to post the combo because I had it capped and waiting for that community combo project along with some others. But since that isn't happening:

Throw an A homerang after a down. If it hits on counter (which does happen a lot) cancel the catch with a d.D (only move that is guaranteed not to hit) and cancel that on the first couple of frames into qcb+C. SC that on 2nd hit to another A homerang. Catch with hLDM on way down.

Because of the random damage factor and the two big single chunks of damage done by the homerangs it can range from KOing a mid stamina character to only doing about 98% on Adel depending on luck. I'd actually supplied all the info needed to do this in my previous post.

As for double LDM doing 100%, man..... only silly gooses like Geese say stuff like that. And since he has just started playing him as well I'll be expecting more info in this thread soon.

Occasionally a homerang thrown after a down will actually hit the next person before they land from jumping in. Need to look into that more.

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Post by AcidicEnema » Fri Aug 25, 2006 21:42

Ack, its going to take awhile before I can get that combo down consisten

Hayate actually does a fair bit of stun. In the corner, he's actually one of the best 'finishers' in the game, possibly better than Adel even. AFAIK, this is the combo that does the most stun in the corner:

j.D (does more stun than j.C)> d.B> s.D> qcb+K> qcb+K> s.C/s.D (D does more stun, C is easier to hit with)

With this combo, he has 1 skill stock stun comboes with a fair portion of the cast (using Kula, a normal stun-resistant character as dummy).

Here are the ones I tried that gave full stun:

DL: j.C>s.C>qcf+A>f+B>hcb+C>d.A*2> QS Hayate
Shen Woo: j.D>s.C>f+A>qcf+C> QS Hayate
Silber: j.D>s.C>f+A> QS Hayate
Duck: j.D>d.A*2>s.B>f+C>QS Hayate
Maxima: j.C>s.D>f+A>qcf+C*2> QS Hayate (Maxima being the bastard that he is, doesn't need the corner to set up the full stun)
Malin: j.C>s.C> f+B> HCF+B> QS Hayate

I still can't get the second qcb+K to hit at mid-screen and still juggle after it. Maybe if I could, he would have more mid-screen full stun combos.

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Post by AcidicEnema » Sat Aug 26, 2006 20:32

Okay, what the hell. QCB+K whiffs against short crouching characters. This includes Kula and Gato. This is both inside and out of combos. The whole ground zoom just whiffs before Hayate flies straight up.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Sun Aug 27, 2006 00:34

Yup. Wiffs against very short (Momoko) characters when they are stunned as well. At least it gives an easy way to drop down and start a combo with the down kick deep and late. If it wiffs on anyone you are best doing that anyways (overhead if they are slow, and safe otherwise.)

Edit: Actually a lot of stuff wiffs on a stunned Momoko.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Mon Aug 28, 2006 00:28

May as well throw down the other stuff I had so people can try it out and possibly advance on it:

Midscreen: Crossup (air)qcb+B, c.B, close B, qcb+B(wire), (air)qcb+B(wiff), close df+C(reset), qcb+D(wiff), (air)d+C(hit 3 of 4), hLDM

The qcb+D wiffs because they are travelling backwards while you zoom after and are out of your hitbox once you start going up. Maybe different on larger hitbox characters? Getting a df+C that hits like this is a pain since you need a perfect amount of wall behind the opponent before wiring. The timing of everything after that is pretty much needs to be pixel/frame perfect as well.

This one is particularly interesting (in corner):
Gai: hop B, close D, f+D, f, b, uf->QS a.k.a usual stuff.
Syo: land, df+C(reset), f+C(flip reset), qcb+K(hit), (air)qcb+K(hit), hLDM

The end sequence can be pretty much replaced by anything (qcb+C, homerang won't work though.) The only other situation the df+C, f+C works is on counter against a jumper in corner so why it works in a QS is anyone's guess.

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