Top 11 LDMs.

Strats, combos, technical discussion.
AcidicEnema
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Post by AcidicEnema » Fri Feb 03, 2006 09:16

Geese wrote: Your ryo reasoning doesnt hold still. For instance, imagine you only had 2 supers and one skill gauge. you do the dp C into his LDM, what is the max damage you can do from there?

Malin's combo with the LDM will do about the same damage without using the skill gauge even and dont get me started on the damage if its a counter. Dulon's will kill the person just about. So im not saying its useless, Im just saying its lousier when compared to other LDMs

Iori's LDM can be used as anti air as well and in combos similar to ryo (ie DP C into LDM) hence why I rated them together. Duck kings I admit is probably the lousiest, but I only had 3 tiers.
Jump C> C> LDM> Jump C> C> Zan Retsu Ken does what... 75% damage for a 2 stock no skill super? That puts the combo value of Ryo's LDM close (inferior cause opponent can saving shift AFTER the stocks have been used, can't do that against Kula/Oswald) to Oswald's and Kula, imo. Malin's LDM in a combo doesn't do as much damage, around 60%, and it can be saving shifted right after the super flash (tho it deserves to be top 3 just for its 0 frame start up and ridiculous counter damage alone, imo).

Not saying that Ryo's LDM is as good as Kula, Oswalds, Malins, or even DL's, but in terms of damage potential, it matches, and even potentially surpasses them (use it at the end quick shift combos to reset damage scaling). It do think, however, that this means that its definately better than say Iori's, which also takes forever to start up this year, and definately doesn't set up as much damage, and scales worse in general.

Even, say compared to Shen Woo's, which I use a lot, and I'd much rather have Ryo's LDM than Shen Woo's since its comboability means that I don't need to pray that the opponent falls asleep before I can land it, and it costs much less to set up 60-80% damage combos with it.

Since no one else seems to agree with me, however, I don't think I'll push the point, just needed to articulate why I think Ryo's is one of the better (tho far from the best) LDMs.

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Post by Scruffy » Fri Feb 03, 2006 09:53

Hello everybody,
Because of exposure to different gaming environments, we tend to apply varying criteria when assessing the effectiveness of an LDM. Note that Empyrian does not really define the meaning of the phrase “functionality and usefulness” in his post, which is why we now have people debating on issues like whether Grapple LDMs should be listed in the top 10 and whether or not a player can consistently maximize the potential of LDMs involving “projected damage”.

My point is, this thread is going nowhere if we do not lay down the ground rules in discerning the qualities that a top LDM should have. Like any other organized forum, it should be the responsibility of the thread starter to set, maintain and adhere to the standards of such criteria. That aside, attached below is a suggested weighted list of considerations to be included in assessing what makes a good move.

(1) Paramount
-Damage and it’s susceptibility to scale.
-Combo friendliness.
-Number of skill stocks/power bars consumed.
-Ease of use (button input and all that stuff)

(2) Important
-Safe when blocked?
-Can it be blown/rolled away when blocked by opponent?
-The character’s tier ranking and his ability to charge guage.
-Feasible to use on it’s own? Speed/range and invulnerability issues.
(e.g. One of the reasons why Ryo’s LDM isn’t that good this year is because it lost its invulnerability & is now slower. If you want priority, you’d have to combo it after a dp+C. The same applies to Gato’ss LDM, For priority on wakeup, you’d have to do qcf b x 2 B(1hit)->DC into dp+E x 3 (3 stocks 1 skill))


(3) Relatively Important (??)
-Susceptibility to opponent’s saving shift (Come on, you need 2 skill +1 live character to do this)
-Quickswitchable?
-Whether or not the LDM itself freezes the screen (so that the opponent can react).
-And finally, if the move itself can be blocked. (e.g. Athena’s and other grapplers’ LDM)

The rather obvious question here is this- being a definitive tier list, how does one rate LDM’s involving subsequent inputs to realize their projected damage, do we
1) assume that they can be done on a consistent basis?
2) take into account the common KoF player’s skill and assume that the El Dee Em might not always be pulled off consistently before he’s had his first cup of morning coffee. Of course, the hard part would be in determining what would be a reasonable amount of skill one would expect from the average KoF player.

Annddd that was my 2 cents.

P.S. Kyo’s Kamikura(grab LDM) does not grab off his Punch DM from half a screen away. You can dream cancel it, but it won’t connect. It grabs him if you hit him while he’s falling vertically in the corner yes, but if your opponent is too far away on the horizontal plane it’ll miss.

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Post by ~!T.T!~ » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:52

emp: if you're rating each LDM based on practicality and usability, then really, duolon's would be high sure. I mean, sure you have to follow it up with a combo which you have a high probability of stuffing up, but if done correctly it can pretty much kill.

Also I have no idea on much of Gato's LDM properties. All i knew before reading this thread is that it was fast and safe.....

on a side note, instant grab LDMs like clark's definetly have to be up there

and i hope this doesn't turn into another "tier" thread again :S

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Post by Tel » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:47

Well, there's lots of ways to rate LDM usefulness.

Take Ash's Germinar for example. Altogether, you need 3 stocks, and using it ends the Sans-Culotte. But it does loads of damage, and it seals off opponent's special moves. As a move by itself, it's very good. But as an LDM, and a follow-up at that, the move is pretty redundant.

I'll wholeheartedly agree Duo Lon's LDM is excellent, but for offensive purposes only. There's simply no way you can bust this out for defence even though he's invincible during the startup. That being said, his LDM has simply excellent damage potential.

Shen's LDM is great for defence, as he's fully invincible throughout the startup animation, and does a tone of damage to boot. But your opponent probably deserved it if they got hit at the start, since it's so slow. The main use for his LDM is for the powerup, and that really depends on how well you can use Shen.

Malin's LDM is great all round for punishment and combo, no complaints there. Oswald's LDM is excellent for the same reason, more so with the invincibility and excellent speed/forward range. I value Oswald's higher than Malin for the simple reason that he's one of my regular characters.

Elisabeth's LDM makes it virtually impossible to hit her from the front, and it launches very quickly to boot, which is why I value it higher than Benimaru. Not that Benimaru's LDM is poor, it's just that he has other anti-air options to choose from that he doesn't benefit from this as noticably as Beth does. For the same reason, I value Terry's Power Stream lower, as he already has the Buster Wolf and Power Geyser to deal with hops/jumps respectively.

Gato's LDM is very good indeed, but the reason I don't rank it that high is because unlike Kula, Elisabeth or Athena, he doesn't suffer without it. The same goes with Kyo, K' and Iori. They are no worse off as normal characters, and while they're LDMs are useful, you'll mostly use them in combos for the extra damage. That's not a bad thing of course, but sometimes I prefer having an LDM that I can pull out of the blue and almost guarantee it hits, like Oswald, Malin or Kula's.

I generally don't pick throw LDMs like Clark or Tizoc's because they suffer extremely high damage scaling when your opponent's life is low.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Fri Feb 03, 2006 16:44

Perfect Stranger wrote: Add to the fact that Gato builds stock pretty easily, and you've got a LDM that can be spammed more easily than, say, Athena's LDM.
This is actually something I didn't take into account.
Scruffy wrote: Kyo’s Kamikura(grab LDM) does not grab off his Punch DM from half a screen away. You can dream cancel it, but it won’t connect. It grabs him if you hit him while he’s falling vertically in the corner yes, but if your opponent is too far away on the horizontal plane it’ll miss.
Perform 182 from around the before mentioned half screen away, let it hit and DC reasonably quick. No need to be near corner. If you thought I ment half screen at the actual DC then there was a miscommunication. The range on this part is still huge though, 3 characters distance or so, way more than it really should be.

The debate here is good. No one is getting upset with peoples differing opinions.

Some data to munch on for people without the mook. As usual take these as guides only. All sorts of things like scaling and number of hits modify this. A lot of interesting numbers in there though.

Char Dam CH Dam
Jyazu 89 99
Momoko 67 72
Griffon 66 X
Ralf 65(45) 120(45)
Terry 65 67
Blue Mary 65 65
Gato 64 70
Clark 64 64
Vanessa 0/64(56) 0/64(56)
B.Jenet 63 63
Eiji 62 62
Silver 62 62
Athena 61 62
Shen 60(0) 88(0)
Malin 60 75
Kula 60 63
Kasumi 60(46) 60(46)
Iori 59 64
Duck 59 59
K' 59 59
Elizabeth 58 62
Whip 57 57
Oswald 57 57
Ramon 56-65 56-65
Shingo 56 64
Benimaru 56 59
King 56 59
Maxima 56 58
Yuri 55 55
Kyo 54(35) 54(35)
Adel 53 53
Sho 52/53 52/53
Kim 51 51
Kensou 40 50
Duo Lon 25(0) 31(0)
Ryo 24(10) 30(18 )
Ash 13/20 16/25
Gai 7 8


Forgot to add, it doesn't matter how hard it is to land. Gai's LDM lets one Tiger Genocide the opponent. That makes it number one in my books.

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Post by Perfect Stranger » Fri Feb 03, 2006 17:26

I have no idea how to read that chart :P Am I the only one -_-;

*also doesn't have access to XI anymore, so he doesn't know what Gai's LDM is*

EDIT: Also, just wanted to say that Scruffy's proposed method of formalising this ongoing debate seems like a great idea... Anyone adding to this great thread is encouraged to frame at least some of his/her thoughts in such a manner.

EDIT again: DOH! The chart's actually pretty simple to read. It's character, character's damage when his/her leader hits, and counter hit damage.

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Post by SonicTempest » Fri Feb 03, 2006 19:33

Perfect Stranger wrote: *also doesn't have access to XI anymore, so he doesn't know what Gai's LDM is*
I think it's a powerup mode where his moves do more damage, a la Kensou's but without the flashy startup animation.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Sat Feb 04, 2006 00:08

In brackets is when cancelled into, forward slashes are when there are two LDMs (Ash's are startup and then sealer.)

Gai's is just an uppercut (hit dodge, b+p) if it hits it activates his powerup (4 extra command moves, disables tagging out.) Next to impossible to land by itself, and if cancelling into you are typically giving up on about 25% of a life bar (unless using at end of rush dm and it's pretty slow so there are not many places to cancel and have it combo.) Just landing it in a match is an event in itself.

Kensou's actually doing more than super damage suprised me. Never noticed it was doing significant damage before.

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Post by Tel » Sat Feb 04, 2006 09:45

Gosh, Shen's LDM damage is insane, more so on Counter Hit! Mmm, it also means Kula's LDM suffers from very heavy damage scaling in combos.

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Post by Empyrian » Sun Feb 05, 2006 18:09

Gato's 天龙烈牙.

1) Paramount
-Damage and it’s susceptibility to scale. -> One of the highest in damage and not susceptible to scaling.
-Combo friendliness. -> Extremely friendly.
-Number of skill stocks/power bars consumed. -> 2 stocks and with/without an additional skill stock.
-Ease of use. -> Extremely easy to use.

(2) Important
-Safe when blocked? -> Yes.
-Can it be blown/rolled away when blocked by opponent? -> Yes.
-The character’s tier ranking and his ability to charge guage. -> I mentioned before that I believe Gato is at A rank w/o his LDM. Gato charges gauge for free. The fastest meter builder in the game.
-Feasible to use on it’s own? Speed/range and invulnerability issues. -> not really. Speed of the move is fast but not faster than his palm super.(which I think should be the fastest DM in the game.) However the LDM makes DC very worthwhile for Gato.

(3) Relatively Important
-And finally, if the move itself can be blocked. -> Block at your own risk. XD

Combine high damage, easy to combo into, very DC friendly, risk free = pretty awesome to me.

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Post by Perfect Stranger » Mon Feb 06, 2006 04:10

To add on to Gato's LDM - this is something minor, but once any hit of the LDM connects, you can't saving shift out of it, I believe...

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Post by frionel » Mon Feb 06, 2006 13:53

Perfect Stranger wrote:To add on to Gato's LDM - this is something minor, but once any hit of the LDM connects, you can't saving shift out of it, I believe...
like any other DM/LDM (but not "special modes" ones like Duolon, Shen, Ash and Vanessa)

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Post by Tel » Mon Feb 06, 2006 17:43

Not true Empyrian. ALL (L)DMs suffer from damage scaling. Perhaps not in combos, but it's affected by opponent's life levels. Even throw moves now suffer from this kind of damage scaling. Try pulling Clark's UABB DM on opponent with less than 25% health and you'll see it does only about 10% damage.

While I agree Gato's LDM is excellent, and makes him very effective, the reason I don't rate it as high is because he doesn't need his LDM to be effective. Elisabeth, Malin and Athena suffer greatly without their LDMs. Kula, Oswald, Shen, Iori and Duo Lon suffer as well, though it's their combo ability that's affected. But some characters like Gato, Kyo, K' and King don't change very much as leaders, and more importantly, you don't need them as leaders to play them very effectively.

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Post by Empyrian » Mon Feb 06, 2006 18:57

I thought susceptible would mean not really yielding or weak in this case. I did not mean to say it is 100% immune to scaling.

Although his LDM combo when done on a full life bar takes more than 60%.

IMO...

Invincibillity: Kula, Athena, Malin, Terry, Elizabeth, Oswald, Adel, K`, Ryo, Benimaru.

Damage: See Slapper Joe's table,

Speed: Malin, Kula, Oswald,Jenet (Is Kasumi's LDM instant like Jenet's?) Silber, Whip, Athena, Gato, Elizabeth, Benimaru.

Combo: Gato, Kula, Beni, Oswald, DL, Shingo, Ryo, Iori, Kyo, K`.

Recovery: Gato, Elizabeth, Kula, Jenet, Malin and it gets vague from here. ;p

Yeah. Gato's LDM is nothing great.

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Post by Bakujin » Tue Feb 07, 2006 05:32

Empyrian wrote:Yeah. Gato's LDM is nothing great.
Now this is a classic one.
I thought it's kinda the combo type and almost unavoidable due to guard crush?

*am a Gato-idiot*

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