Gameplay changes you'd like to see in KOFXII

Strats, combos, technical discussion.
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Post by orochan » Tue Feb 06, 2007 03:35

G-Product wrote:I def. agree with Orochan's request for Leona's return and make it better than ever, she was pure fuckin gabbage in 2k3
You're my friend.

On the gameplay side... I'd like to see a return of the Advanced and Extra style, to put more variation into characters...

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Post by Tel » Thu Feb 08, 2007 16:31

J]-[UN wrote:Ack...if u think thats bad, ppl here whore saving shifts into almost anything with anyone ....or at least try to @@ Oswald's , Kim's and Kula's LDM are repeat offenders :(

In XII I want less annoyingly spammable normal moves. No more retarded Clark/Ralf C,C,C,C,dwnC,C and Maxima 'Goro Daimon Ds into fwdA' please...
No more Shingo/Kyo/Beni/Kula B,B,B,B,B,B,B half screen range pokes please.

Hitboxes and priorities of a lot of the far StandC/StandDs need to be fixed as well, like Kyo's retarded far StandC , Gato's far StandD, Eiji's far C to name a few....

And finally...get some decent players to really sit down and play the game in practice mode and against each other at the Beta testing ffs.....stuff like Vanessa's infinite, Oswald's dfA bug and KGOED's sheer brokenness COULD and SHOULD have easily been discovered in the Betas =_=;;;
Good grief, yes. Silber, Ralf and Clark get so stupidly retarded just abusing one button that it gets ridiculous.

And hops really need to return to the way it was before XI.

Good point about the Saving Shift. You should be able to SS from any non-DM, non-throw move from any position, although to be fair, you shouldn't be able to punish someone after that hits, unlike how it is now with anywhere juggles.

I don't really agree with putting in healing into KOF, especially not with the Quick Switch option there. I can already imagine scrubs doing a few pokes, then QSing a wounded character out. Even in NGBC, tagging made a vs match artificially longer because it's so easy to tag out.

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Post by J]-[UN » Thu Feb 08, 2007 18:48

I don't mind the hops actually...its the obscenely huge stun frames light attacks have thats the problem : /

In previous KOFs very low hop C/Ds would tend to whiff since the characters land before the hitbox activates but in XI, heavy attack hitboxes come out practically instantaneously....I say keep the low hops, but fix the stun duration / hitbox activation.

A pretty balanced character in XI taking the above into account is Elizabeth.
Her air C/D work somewhat like Yashiro's in 2k2 , and her hopBs need to be quite precise since the stun duration is (relative to most of the cast) short.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Fri Feb 09, 2007 02:34

Random Stuffs:

Personally I'd like to see the removal of the 2nd dot of the special stock. So QS combos could only have one shift in them. As for SSs they could use the stock and a level of meter and work as blowaways, or just removed from the game. I'd prefer the second.

Stun by QS-in attacks needs to be scaled a lot better.

Engine needs some sort of consistant gravity. Several characters' jump, sj and hop arcs need to be looked at and de-ridiculousified.

No new characters who needs their moves to have these unique properties put in them at the design period to make them interesting. So no stupid ACE, no really stupid df+A and no really-really moronically stupid d.D. Interesting -> Gai + Elizabeth. Garbage dump -> Oswald.

No more getting up backturned.

More sexual ambiguity and more make-up. I want to use the word gay when describing the entire male roster.

I personally think the lifebars and judgement indicator are fine as they are.

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Post by Derrace » Fri Feb 09, 2007 02:50

J]-[UN wrote:I don't mind the hops actually...its the obscenely huge stun frames light attacks have thats the problem : /

In previous KOFs very low hop C/Ds would tend to whiff since the characters land before the hitbox activates but in XI, heavy attack hitboxes come out practically instantaneously....I say keep the low hops, but fix the stun duration / hitbox activation.

A pretty balanced character in XI taking the above into account is Elizabeth.
Her air C/D work somewhat like Yashiro's in 2k2 , and her hopBs need to be quite precise since the stun duration is (relative to most of the cast) short.

speaking of Eliz, I hope they include more command moves (Fwd B/Fwd A/Df B/C/D) for each chars, and make them link properly. Eliz combo ending with Dp A doesn't always link. I am not sure if there's a good or bad thing, but if they are to be linkable, apply a heavy damage scaling on combos, just like Guilty Gear. Another char is Shen's Stand C, Fwd B, Fwd C which you cant do anything after that.

Another thing, I've noticed a trend for most fighting games which is the BnB combos for each char. In kof, each char has a set of combos which does the most damage 1) without DM, 2)with DM and 3)LDM, Some DM/LDM does more damage if done alone or with minimal combo starters. Perhaps what they could do to provide more depth into gameplay would be to have a look at the command move, the length of the chain, the number of stocks used, etc and classify them into the following:

basic combos (DM) that:
1) Do the most damage, but very little stun and stores little power gauge.
2) Store power gauge fast, does low-mid range damage, low stun
3) high stun, decent damage, but very very little power gauge.

just like how they do the damage scaling, power gauge, stun damage, hit damage points could be reduced base on length chain and the above.

DM comboes that:
basically make a super duper long (though not neccessary) chain that does absolutely no hitstun, little damage, storing average gauge, but give the DM/LDM a significant damage boost when executed with this chain. And maybe provide the char with another chain that does decent stun damage, hp damage, and normal damage for DM, but give the DM a stun damage bonus

That way, each player would have his own defined fighting style and gameplay.

Other stuff I would like to see are New heroes that can:

1) drain opponent's stock/skill gauge. This was done once with Kula (I think it was 2001) where she spends 2Stock to deplete the opponents stock. I cant remember if she depleted all the stock or just 1. sorry about that.

2) disable someone's move for like a few secs, and a DM does does it longer. Or simply a DM does makes the opponent take more damage (block damage), or stun damage. Or maybe just disable the opponents DM/LDM, or projectiles.. lots of stuff can be explored in this area.

3) makes the opponent have reversal directional controls as seen in Seth's HSDM in '02

4) slows the char down, or making him jump either super low or super high, or disable jump for a few secs...

5) a char that can minic someone's move, dm/ldm similar to XMen's Rouge.

Pardon my typos, I am at work, and this just got me so excited I had to post it now.. he hee. So what do you guys think of my suggestions?

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Post by J]-[UN » Fri Feb 09, 2007 04:37

I like the idea about the combos actually, but everything (including the combo system) sounds very GGXX-ish :3 You....use Baiken a lot?

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Post by Derrace » Fri Feb 09, 2007 05:30

J]-[UN wrote:I like the idea about the combos actually, but everything (including the combo system) sounds very GGXX-ish :3 You....use Baiken a lot?
erm, why do you ask?

I have only played GG Slash (on atomiswave) or something a few times, and I've only used the guy that looks like benimaru but has flames...is that Baiken?

Well, I had these ideas before I even played GG series. And when I played it, I went wow, cool fighting system, but I still prefer Kof =)

Actually, the damage thingy with regards to chains was there in last blade series (which I have played). I used to go to practise mode, turn on combo display and damage display, and then work out the most damaging combo.

=)

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Post by Dark_Chaotix » Fri Feb 09, 2007 15:07

I think they redid the hitbox for the Heavy attacks is because QS would not work from the pervious versions.

Definitly no healing for resting characters.

Alot of you are complaining about Stun, and SSing. What about guard crash?? Its seems ppl cant handle being or getting attack by some characters. I still see guard crash in some match and i dont see anyone complaing about that either. I think some ppl need to learn some basic defence and deal to how these charcters are. Things like oswald ACE isnt easy to do and there are certain restriction for it to work obviously. Just cos some ppl can do it effectively, its cheating?? Kula has been the same since 2k2 in her gameplay style besides the fact she has some different combos, but her main mind games and strats are there. Not many ppl complain about that, but in xi she a pain........why??

Maybe make Ace a DM finisher, so it comes at a cost???

Why would everyone need a mandatory fwd or df+?? move. Having it how it is, is good. Keeps the "repeativeness" of doing the same motions at a low between characters.

I dont like the ideas of Derricks (no offence, being constructive) with heros team that can do certain things. I can seen so high abusive useage of that team if they could do that. I got nothin against characters that can do that, but i feel it would make the game experience worse, and not fun. I dont mind being wall bounced by oswald, cos i know i can do it back but a DM that makes me not jump, not use fireball or reverse my controls would do my head in. The stealing of a move sounds nice tho..............

I feel KOf is more mainstream that GG, therefore ppl would rather more damaging combo then anything else. They rather do something that would be quicker and / or benefitical to them at that time, where damage is their best friend. GG has alot more gameplay options where choosing simple/safe over large/risky combos is alot more broader.

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Post by Tel » Fri Feb 09, 2007 15:11

Daft as it may seem, a lot of the damage in XI really comes from single hits. Granted, some combos are really the OMGWTF damaging, but from what I noticed due to the abundance of hop attacks, nailing in 3-4 hopping strikes is the equivalent of your character's standard BnB combo. And has anyone even checked out the damage that comes from one of Silber's standing/crouching A attacks? As much as I love XI for the fun factor, I can't help but notice that even though combos are essential as ever, you score ridiculous damage with the usual hop C/D, sweep plus a few pokes here and there. Most Gato users just go about the match with the usual hop D, cr. B, sweep and the occasional DM.

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Post by J]-[UN » Fri Feb 09, 2007 18:36

Most of the damage in high level matches in 98 and 2k2 and XI have always been mainly from single (counter) hits..........so nothing new there :) Its always poke,poke,poke and zone until somebody gets in a meaty hit into combo.

Derrick ---> cos Baiken has counter DMs which seal special moves/jumps/dashes depending on the button used :P She's the character which looks like Rurouni Kenshin XD

On a side note...ACE is extremely easy to do...and a lot of players here just use Oswald as a combo ender in the corner. They keep him tagged out for the whole match, QS him in at the end of a combo near a corner for his ACE then tag him out again.

Chaotix's remarks remind me of the time I was in Singapore for the KOF 2k1 tourney...and in one of the final group matches this guy was abusing Hinako's infinite like no tomorrow...and when Vincent asked him to "dun do that la >_<" he replied that the combo is legit since it was "hard to do"...yeah right =_=;

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Post by Dark_Chaotix » Sat Feb 10, 2007 09:39

J]-[UN wrote:Most of the damage in high level matches in 98 and 2k2 and XI have always been mainly from single (counter) hits..........so nothing new there :) Its always poke,poke,poke and zone until somebody gets in a meaty hit into combo.

Derrick ---> cos Baiken has counter DMs which seal special moves/jumps/dashes depending on the button used :P She's the character which looks like Rurouni Kenshin XD

On a side note...ACE is extremely easy to do...and a lot of players here just use Oswald as a combo ender in the corner. They keep him tagged out for the whole match, QS him in at the end of a combo near a corner for his ACE then tag him out again.

Chaotix's remarks remind me of the time I was in Singapore for the KOF 2k1 tourney...and in one of the final group matches this guy was abusing Hinako's infinite like no tomorrow...and when Vincent asked him to "dun do that la >_<" he replied that the combo is legit since it was "hard to do"...yeah right =_=;
In regards to oswald, QS into his ACE isnt as hard as 2 wall bounce combo ingame. I was more referring to those players that do that rather then the QS into, ACE, QS out. Where in saying that, have the ACE as a DM ender like EX Kyo?? I think that would help stop the "abusive" ACE for ppl that dont like it.

So it wrong for someone to work so hard to perfect a combo that a general or just a slightly "not as good" player cant do?? I dont think so, Doing like a DM thats ment to be ground only and some how pulling off in the air (bug basically), yes id find that unfair, but a combo that a player has studied and perfect and worked into his game style i find that fine. Admire someone that can actually do that in game, and in high level at that. Gives me, if i were the loser to that guy, an incentive to learn and play better. I guess it just me that think like that................

I personlly dont like pokey pokey game play, but if thats whats needed to break someone down well thats what it takes, but dissappointing for some to just stick that the style cos the refuses to elaborate or uses their given moves (gato..........)

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Post by G-Product » Wed Feb 14, 2007 04:08

running and dashing like in NGBC
add something to effect our choice in who we pick as leader besides LDM's. Something that only the leader will recieve I dunno how to explain myself here

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Post by Derrace » Wed Feb 14, 2007 04:18

G-Product wrote:running and dashing like in NGBC
add something to effect our choice in who we pick as leader besides LDM's. Something that only the leader will recieve I dunno how to explain myself here
I like that, how about a special intro between the 2 leaders?

or maybe make it that only the non leader chars can heal when they are out...

or something to that extent...

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Post by orochan » Wed Feb 14, 2007 05:03

Maybe the leaders could recover health and not the others...

This is probably dumb, but like in cvs, have the leader slightly stronger... like ratio1.5...

And get a points bonus for finishing with the leader

...

On the card debate, instead of customising, how about storing your favourite team? of course have a choice to edit the team if you go off a character...

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Post by Dark_Chaotix » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:41

Healing makes the game go too long.

And how is dash--->run a good thing??

Leaders actually give your move judgment meter when you kill an opponent. Need there be more??

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