Gameplay changes you'd like to see in KOFXII

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Post by -Defuser- » Wed Feb 14, 2007 17:17

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Post by Iie-Kyo » Sun Feb 18, 2007 06:19

Tel wrote:I don't really agree with putting in healing into KOF, especially not with the Quick Switch option there. I can already imagine scrubs doing a few pokes, then QSing a wounded character out. Even in NGBC, tagging made a vs match artificially longer because it's so easy to tag out.
This is the reason why snapbacks are there - to prevent scrubby play like this. They should be comboable to some extent, but it shouldnt cause juggles or whatnot like the scrubby switchout attack in that pos game they call KoF 2k3.

And healing does not make the game longer if the engine is done properly in the first place. I'll defend this because Capcom's versus series made this concept popular (I know they werent the first ones to do it) and IMO KoF doesn't feel right without the ability to heal your characters. There's absolutely no point in keeping your point character alive because of the lack of healing, and it'd make you manage your team more.

I would imagine they MAY have to slow the timer down a little bit to compensate for the healing, but I honestly don't think XI is better off without it. Because of the "team" element of the game, to me it just feels right that healing is there.

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Post by Tel » Mon Feb 19, 2007 04:30

The Capcom VS series could put in healing with a tagging system because your tag leaves you dead vulnerable if blocked. In KOF and NGBC, it's only the exiting character that's vulnerable, while the incoming character is safe. In a Quick or Saving Shift, neither character is open to attack, and is primed for an offensive. If the Quick Switch was modified into a knockdown attack, then a taunt like in the VS series, then healing wouldn't be a bad idea. But that'll make the QS virtually useless in comparison to what we have in XI. Even if we were to put in a snapback attack, it'll be useless if someone QS in and is on the offensive, since there's no way of getting it to hit.

The only option I can think about is to modify the Guard Cancel Blowback Attack so that you have the option to snapback someone, like say block+E > AC/BD to perform an extra attack to snapback to a selected character for the cost of one skill bar on top of the stock bar. Of course we'll still need the offensive snapback like the one in MvC2. Although to prevent abuse like the opportunity to kill off two wounded characters with a double snapback, there probably needs to be a timer for tagging (or at least snapbacks) like in 2k3. But IMHO, if a snapback connects, there shouldn't be any opportunity to combo off it.

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Post by Iie-Kyo » Mon Feb 19, 2007 18:26

Tel wrote:The Capcom VS series could put in healing with a tagging system because your tag leaves you dead vulnerable if blocked. In KOF and NGBC, it's only the exiting character that's vulnerable, while the incoming character is safe. In a Quick or Saving Shift, neither character is open to attack, and is primed for an offensive. If the Quick Switch was modified into a knockdown attack, then a taunt like in the VS series, then healing wouldn't be a bad idea. But that'll make the QS virtually useless in comparison to what we have in XI. Even if we were to put in a snapback attack, it'll be useless if someone QS in and is on the offensive, since there's no way of getting it to hit.
The incoming character is vulnerable. They cannot block for a split second when they're coming in from a normal tag. Granted, it's a split second, but they're not rendered totally invulnerable as you say. I do think they should modify the tag system so that it's similar to MvC2's style, where switching out is free but having the character come in is not. The switch in should do a knockdown but should not be lame so that it gives you a free juggle opportunity. IMO it should be a fairly high priority untechable attack. When I mean fairly, I mean it should be able to trade with stuff, not completely beat stuff out like Duo Lon's ghey ass switchout attack in 2k3.

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Post by AcidicEnema » Mon Feb 19, 2007 19:01

Iie-Kyo wrote: And healing does not make the game longer if the engine is done properly in the first place. I'll defend this because Capcom's versus series made this concept popular (I know they werent the first ones to do it) and IMO KoF doesn't feel right without the ability to heal your characters. There's absolutely no point in keeping your point character alive because of the lack of healing, and it'd make you manage your team more.

I would imagine they MAY have to slow the timer down a little bit to compensate for the healing, but I honestly don't think XI is better off without it. Because of the "team" element of the game, to me it just feels right that healing is there.
I'm actually pretty happy with the current system. QSes and SSes give you more than an incentive to keep your characters alive. The QS system naturally differentiates characters based on their natural advantages as QS starters and enders.

Adding in healing at this point would be kinda artificial, imo.

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Post by Tel » Tue Feb 20, 2007 07:42

Iie-Kyo wrote:The incoming character is vulnerable. They cannot block for a split second when they're coming in from a normal tag. Granted, it's a split second, but they're not rendered totally invulnerable as you say. I do think they should modify the tag system so that it's similar to MvC2's style, where switching out is free but having the character come in is not. The switch in should do a knockdown but should not be lame so that it gives you a free juggle opportunity. IMO it should be a fairly high priority untechable attack. When I mean fairly, I mean it should be able to trade with stuff, not completely beat stuff out like Duo Lon's ghey ass switchout attack in 2k3.
Well, even in its current state, it's way too hard to punish an incoming tagged characters, as only an idiot is going to tag all of a sudden when his opponent is next to him. The Quick Switch and Saving Shift is even harder to punish, so there really needs to be some form of vulnerability for an incoming character. Maybe tags need to be controlled like how it was in 2k3 with a timer.

The other thing is healing itself. What should be the healing rate for characters? Fast like in Tekken Tag, moderate like in NGBC or pathetically slow like in Kizuna Encounter? And how long should a character stay out of play before he/she starts healing? It may sound pretty basic, but even in NGBC, a versus match can be artificially long because your opponent was turtling and switching out repeatedly. And that was with a very basic tag option: just switching out, guard cancel switch and a very weak tag attack meant to lower the amount of health someone can regain. With a system that's more open like in KOF, healing may throw game balance off altogether.

Actually, now that we're broaching a little on the subject of MvC2, what is anyone's opinion about having on-screen partner assists or striker attacks in the next KOF game? We all know how broken it made MvC2 and KOF2k/2k1, but somehow partner assists in a tag game does feel logical. Up until 99 we've had a very limited partner assist to break mashable throws anyway.

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Post by J]-[UN » Thu Feb 22, 2007 18:00

I have a feeling next KOF is gonna have ROMANCANCEL and FAKEROMANCANCEL since SNK typically rips off system quirks from other fighting games a few years after it comes out hehehe....

Like Strikers 99...Super Cancels and then Tag Ins...........

The only thing I doubt we'll ever see in KOF is the airdash.

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Post by Dark_Chaotix » Thu Feb 22, 2007 23:18

J]-[UN wrote:I have a feeling next KOF is gonna have ROMANCANCEL and FAKEROMANCANCEL since SNK typically rips off system quirks from other fighting games a few years after it comes out hehehe....

Like Strikers 99...Super Cancels and then Tag Ins...........

The only thing I doubt we'll ever see in KOF is the airdash.
Isnt roman cancelling like maxmode??

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Post by J]-[UN » Fri Feb 23, 2007 05:02

Oh, no cos MaxMode is cancelling a move into another move, whereas ROMANCANCEL gives you instant recovery upon landing a hit @_@

FakeROMANCANCEL lets you cancel the move before it lands (or upon hitting but with stricter timing) : /

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Post by Dark_Chaotix » Fri Feb 23, 2007 13:52

J]-[UN wrote:Oh, no cos MaxMode is cancelling a move into another move, whereas ROMANCANCEL gives you instant recovery upon landing a hit @_@

FakeROMANCANCEL lets you cancel the move before it lands (or upon hitting but with stricter timing) : /
People are complaining how bad characters like oswald, kula and gato are now. can you imagine how more sooky they would get if something like roman cancel was introduced??

I think people are giving solutions to issues that make them worse.............

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Post by Tel » Fri Feb 23, 2007 17:14

J]-[UN wrote:I have a feeling next KOF is gonna have ROMANCANCEL and FAKEROMANCANCEL since SNK typically rips off system quirks from other fighting games a few years after it comes out hehehe....

Like Strikers 99...Super Cancels and then Tag Ins...........

The only thing I doubt we'll ever see in KOF is the airdash.
Uh, we may already have that. Adel's sweep > qcf+Start is rather like a (Fals) Roman Cancel don't you think? :D

As for an air dash, Yuki had that in NGBC, so be very, very afraid.

Let's hope SNKP won't actually put in that stuff, not especially (F)RCs. I wouldn't mind them doing a lesser version and incorporating Breakable moves like in MOTW for everyone though. KOF needs more feint options. :D

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Post by J]-[UN » Fri Feb 23, 2007 18:11

Heh true...

DC --> I'm not saying I WANT ROMANCANCELS and FRCs in the game, I'm just predicting <--PREDICTING what is gonna be introduced based on SNK's style of copying/ripping/tweaking off other game's systems in the past hehe....

As for feint moves, we definitely don't need that in KOF...Garou was a prime example of how horrendously broken Brake moves were (the worst being Terry's StandC, brake burn knuckle x 4) >_<. I wouldn't mind stuff like Terry's XI Power Dunk (neutral frame advantage on block, open to grabs) though as long as those kind of moves don't cause juggles...it would add another element to mind games since a lot of good players keep an eye out for escape rollable moves....being able to throw in a feint or two would be a nice option.

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Post by Tel » Sat Feb 24, 2007 04:52

Uh, all characters except Tizoc had only one Breakable move in Garou, and Terry can't break his Burn Knuckle.

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Post by SonicTempest » Sat Feb 24, 2007 05:11

I think the craziest thing I've seen Terry do with feint cancels in MOTW was something like f,f+C, stand C, feint stand C, feint crouch C, f,f+A, f,f+A as a block string or something. Did tons of guard meter damage.

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Post by J]-[UN » Sat Feb 24, 2007 17:50

Oh yeah it was his power charge Brake , been years since I last played MOTW ( though I still remember its brokenshitness).

Not only did it set up Guard Crushes, you could do a meaty hopD just before he guard breaks to set up another 4-5 free StandCs into P power :/

Everyone and I mean EVERYONE who played MOTW at a high lvl would just keep whoring the brake moves as soon as they got into range to spam them safely since there was basically nothing you could do to get out of it... eg Marco's dpA brake x N , Dong Hwan/Jae Hoon/Jenny WooHoo of Death/Kain's Schwartz schwartz schwartz etc etc etc..........it was free power and Guard Crush (a.k.a. HUGE MATCH ADVANTAGE) for whoever lands it first.

Terry's was just the most obscene because I think it is the only brake move which lets you do repeated HEAVY punches (they guard crush faster than special moves) for free, and you dun even wanna know the dmg when T.O.P. was activated

swt ~_~;;;

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