Is KoFXI too easy to play / does it have too smooth controls

Strats, combos, technical discussion.

Are the game controls and combos too easy?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 19, 2007 16:10

Yes, definately make them harder again. Any scrub can beat me now x_x
0
No votes
No leave it that way! I have a weak execution and in XI even I can do some combos now!
6
50%
It should be a mix of KoF2k2 feel and KoFXI ease of use.
6
50%
 
Total votes: 12

Blastrezz
Is KoFXI too easy to play / does it have too smooth controls

Post by Blastrezz » Tue Jan 09, 2007 16:10

Hi there.

This has been on my mind for quite some time but I decided only now to make it a thread.

I think it is pretty obvious, that KoFXI is by far the "easiest" KoF in history in terms of smooth controls and ease of combo performing (match practical combos that is, of course).

When I played KoF2k and moved on to KoF2k2 it was leap forward in playability. Nowadays if you try to play KoF2k it feels INCREDIBLY unrespoonsive and has extremely hard controls. To perform your usual combos can be a large pain. Especially if compared to other major fighting games like SF3:Third Strike the difference is just huge.
With KoF2k2 it got better. (I don't know much about 2k1 so I leave this out here.) I thought that 2k2 was the best playable KoF that far. Not as hard as before but not too slack like in Third Strike either.

For KoFXI I really think that they went too far with this tendency of making it all easier to perform stuff.
Don't get me wrong. KoFXI is certainly Top3 KoFs ever made and I rank it personal number 1! That means I really admire the game but I think stuff is too easy to do.

Now this is the question here. Do you like it when combos almost perform automatically and require minimal or just a little practice or do you really prefer some tightness in controls.
Should a thougher skill level be required for combos?
I think yes because that was one of the main points KoF was always strong and challenging about: The crazy combo engine.

Although I enable voting I'd really apprectiate some explaining posts in this thread! So please vote and feel free to comment a lot!

I personally vote for a mixture. I don't need the feel of KoF2k2 or before back but it certainly should require some more skill again to do things in future KoFs.

--Blast

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Post by J]-[UN » Wed Jan 10, 2007 04:36

Hmm...I play kof 98, 2k2 and XI concurrently and I don't find performing combos difficult, I think its just a matter of getting used to the system's timing. Even way back when I was playing KOF 99/2000/2001 I don't remember it having clunky controls.

I know when I started playing 2k2 and 98 again this year it took me a few days to get used to the system again @@. I even had trouble recovery rolling in 2k2. But once I got used to the timing by constantly reminding myself that they are 3 DIFFERENT games instead of expecting them to respond like XI I haven't encountered any problems.

My main beef with XI is with those crappy LDMs which knock off like 50-80% life in one hit : /

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Post by ~!T.T!~ » Wed Jan 10, 2007 15:50

i understand what you mean by the "ease" execution (e.g. quick shift combos have the potential of doing upwards of half a bar, not to mention dodgy LDM combos). I do think that the damage scaling is quite good throughout, though. IMHO snk did find a good balance overall between the system and characters.


with that said, yeah, i'd like to see elements of 2k2 back (2k2 style roll recovery (reduced recovery), but not execution invincibility) and slightly higher hops

Blastrezz

Post by Blastrezz » Wed Jan 10, 2007 18:01

~!T.T!~ wrote:i understand what you mean by the "ease" execution (e.g. quick shift combos have the potential of doing upwards of half a bar, not to mention dodgy LDM combos).
No I mean easiness of combos. Not their damage. Damages are fair for the most part (Oswald's ACE damage and of course some other exceptions not regarded)

What I mean "stuff" is really TOO easy to perform.... Sorry I have trouble explaining it better.

Let's say you learn Kyo ji.B, n.C xx qcf+D~D, (juggle) DM.
I bet you get it to work a lot easier than you get the same combo in KoF2k2.
Jump-Ins need NO timing at all in KoFXI. Please just compare it to 2k2.
I think everybody will notice how "hard" it is to connect a simple jump-in whatever-move to a standing heavy attack in KoF2k2. In XI on the contrary you need NO timing at all!
In 2k2 you have to hit at the proper height and then press the standing button quite precisely!

--Blast

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Post by Empyrian » Wed Jan 10, 2007 18:30

Skill is a relative thing.

Although a lot of this stems from the fact that a lot of combos in this game require speed, not exact precision or timing. (I suppose Oswald's combos are the exceptions here. XD)

So if you can move the joystick and press the buttons fast enough, stuff comes out.

Another obvious thing would be, XI is similar to '97 in the sense that both games promote using supers/LDMs as counter or standalone moves in addition to using them in combos.

Blastrezz

Post by Blastrezz » Wed Jan 10, 2007 19:20

Empyrian wrote:Although a lot of this stems from the fact that a lot of combos in this game require speed, not exact precision or timing. (.....)
So if you can move the joystick and press the buttons fast enough, stuff comes out.
Pardon me dear Empyrian but I (!) think that's completely and utterly not true ^^
Sure, most major games will have combos that newbies cannot do right away but in KoFXI you have to do a lot of stuff more slowly because the engine buffers some stuff so extremely.

And every advanced Guilty Gear player will disagree with you in general about the speed of of input timing. Compared to GG or even some earlier KoF you can really chill during combos in XI.

I guess combo wise, KoFXI really is almost a light user game.
I (!) find this is pretty much annoying and I wanted to know if you think so, too.

As I always like to compare with Third Strike I might say that it is not a bad thing if a game is smooth to enter and hard to master but combo timing really should be a little stricter than it is in XI ^^

--Blast

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Post by Empyrian » Wed Jan 10, 2007 19:32

Then I apologise for the error of my post. I most definitely have not been playing the game as in-depth/frequently as you are now.

In addition the options on your poll are skewered towards a particular way of thinking.

Blastrezz

Post by Blastrezz » Wed Jan 10, 2007 20:05

Empyrian wrote:Then I apologise for the error of my post. I most definitely have not been playing the game as in-depth/frequently as you are now.
I've been extra polite for you so save your sarcasm, alright?
Empyrian wrote:In addition the options on your poll are skewered towards a particular way of thinking.
No. It's basically a "yes" a "no" and a "draw".
Which leaves you all the ways open to vote for what you think.

--Blast

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Post by Perfect Stranger » Thu Jan 11, 2007 04:14

Voted "No, leave it as that".

I can see why Empyrian would think the results are kinda skewed- While my execution isn't fantastic, it's not like I had problems doing B&B combos on previous KOFs. Also you're missing a fairly obvious option as well - that maybe some people might like the controls even more simplified.

I voted no because while I agree that some combos should be difficult to do, I would rather most feasible combos be not that hard to pull off - this would allow me to spend less time and effort concentrating on getting the motions right and more brainpower on what I think the opponent is going to do, what my options are in response to that, and what happens if he doesn't move as I predicted. i.e. I would like to think about the game more as a set of choices I can make as opposed to right now where a significant chunk of my consciousness is spent going "OK, after this QS I'm supposed to do a jump D, dwn fwd a, wait for just a little, not too long, before doing qcb C, qcf b, and if the opponent's height is just right then I can follow up with qcf e".

Blastrezz

Post by Blastrezz » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:46

Perfect Stranger wrote:Voted "No, leave it as that".

I can see why Empyrian would think the results are kinda skewed- While my execution isn't fantastic, it's not like I had problems doing B&B combos on previous KOFs. Also you're missing a fairly obvious option as well - that maybe some people might like the controls even more simplified.
If it gets even easier, I'm probably gonna stop playing KOF.
I couldn't imagine anybody to wish for it to get even easier, so I didn't put this kind of vote option.
Perfect Stranger wrote:I voted no because while I agree that some combos should be difficult to do, I would rather most feasible combos be not that hard to pull off - this would allow me to spend less time and effort concentrating on getting the motions right and more brainpower on what I think the opponent is going to do, (....)
Of course I see your point and that's what I wanted to know: if more people think that way.
Let's see, how the vote turns out. I set it up for 100 days.

--Blast

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Post by Derrace » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:49

Blastrezz wrote:
Empyrian wrote:Although a lot of this stems from the fact that a lot of combos in this game require speed, not exact precision or timing. (.....)
So if you can move the joystick and press the buttons fast enough, stuff comes out.
Pardon me dear Empyrian but I (!) think that's completely and utterly not true ^^
Sure, most major games will have combos that newbies cannot do right away but in KoFXI you have to do a lot of stuff more slowly because the engine buffers some stuff so extremely.

And every advanced Guilty Gear player will disagree with you in general about the speed of of input timing. Compared to GG or even some earlier KoF you can really chill during combos in XI.

I guess combo wise, KoFXI really is almost a light user game.
I (!) find this is pretty much annoying and I wanted to know if you think so, too.

As I always like to compare with Third Strike I might say that it is not a bad thing if a game is smooth to enter and hard to master but combo timing really should be a little stricter than it is in XI ^^

--Blast
It is a bit easier to do the comboes, but I find it all the same for me, with the exception of 96 and 2003. The frames for those are weird. Doing Jump C, Stand C requires proper timing.

Combos are easier to do because more chars have moves like fwd A/B, df A/B/C/D, and existing chars with those can now join those moves to a command move or DM.

However, one impt buffering for "iori/takuma-like" comboes have been removed in XI. For e.g Iori, Jump C, Stand C (hold on to C), Qcf A (fwd A comes out), Hcb (release C) Punch.



why isnt there an option "I dont really care, leave it or change it. Cause I am UBER and I PWN U either way"

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Post by G-Product » Fri Jan 12, 2007 02:46

2k2 controls was complete gabbage! 99 - 2k2 controls sucked. 2k3 was better than 2k2 but sucked nonetheless. I thought the control is 98 was rather good. But 11 by far has the best control in the KOF series.

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Post by J]-[UN » Fri Jan 12, 2007 04:08

Wtf are u serious....

I had fun during 2k3 (one of the very few here who actually played the game instead of sticking to 2k2/2k2 HACKED 5 meters one hit u die) but
even I realise how clunky the controls were...

Just like in previous KOFs, I don't think B&Bs gave most people trouble did they?_? And the QS system when used in matches is usually chaining together a bunch of easy B&Bs in the first place.

The slightly more advanced combos still require pretty strict timing.

eg. Elizabeth with Ralf/K/oswald multiple juggle in corner, Liz StandC, fwdA, A, fwdA qcf C, Terry's power dunk juggle in the corner with 2 power charges,
Kim's/Jyazu's corner juggles etc.

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Post by Derrace » Fri Jan 12, 2007 17:13

J]-[UN wrote:Wtf are u serious....

I had fun during 2k3 (one of the very few here who actually played the game instead of sticking to 2k2/2k2 HACKED 5 meters one hit u die) but
even I realise how clunky the controls were...

Just like in previous KOFs, I don't think B&Bs gave most people trouble did they?_? And the QS system when used in matches is usually chaining together a bunch of easy B&Bs in the first place.

The slightly more advanced combos still require pretty strict timing.

eg. Elizabeth with Ralf/K/oswald multiple juggle in corner, Liz StandC, fwdA, A, fwdA qcf C, Terry's power dunk juggle in the corner with 2 power charges,
Kim's/Jyazu's corner juggles etc.
Combowise, 2002 has the craziest and hardest combos. Whip's BC infinite, Angel's infinite,Maylee's insane damage combos are far far harder to do then say, trying to keep an opp in the air using gato, or duolon's infinite and such. There's no room for error in the combos in 02. Basic - Expert level, some of the BC combos; say vanessa's infinite, ryo's bug combo hsdm and the likes, Iori Stand D into HSDM, those are easy to do, but when you are talking about the cream of the cream of the crop, I have to admit, even a combo crazy player like me cant pull of some of the combos without practising like mad. Even Ramon's block trap thingy (think eiji's down D into Dp A) in 02 is harder to do,

Anyway, that's that.. I am waiting for my kof XII kit =) It says jan 31st, but I seriously doubt it would be released on time. The beta machine/roster list isn't out yet!

oh well...

Blastrezz

Post by Blastrezz » Fri Jan 12, 2007 18:23

Derrick wrote:Combowise, 2002 has the craziest and hardest combos.
I agree. 2k2 has insane combos but I think KoF2k doesn't stand much behind it in terms of craziness. 2k2 is a little harder because you lack the striker of course but I think 2k feels so damn tight that I myself cannot even play this anymore nowadays ^^ It's just too hard. I'm fighting more with the controls than with my enemy.
Derrick wrote:Anyway, that's that.. I am waiting for my kof XII kit =) It says jan 31st, but I seriously doubt it would be released on time.
Dude where does it say 31st January? I'm really interested on which company writes crap like that.... For the reasons you already said that's quite or let's say totally impossible. It hasn't even been previewed in Arcadia magazine.

--Blast

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