Your theories for rebalances in PS2 XI?

[~!T.T!~]

i agree with empyrian on the topic that altering moves to such an extent that the arcade version becomes totally different to the home version would actually deter people from buying/playing the game. Combos wouldnt link and such and you'd eventually forget what you can/can't do on arcade/console anyway. However, i'm for changing properties of some moves e.g. oswald's massive jump C hitbox, kula's etc. Although changing oswald's LDM to make it not juggle anywhere would mean that a lot of his BnB would be useless now

[Blastrezz]

Iie-Kyo, is that initial topic starting posting here a wishlist or what?
To be honest I didnt thouroughly read everything in this topic here but all you assumed was not fact so far, right?

Only thing that I heared of was the removal of Oswald's unguardable Bug.

If the really are going to make SO MANY other changes it splits the beat'em-up community even further.
I talked to the guys on IRC before and I revealed myself to be an arcade-perfect fetishist. Like in the good old NeoGeo times where we were able to play a 100%-arcade-perfect version of the game after about 3 months for the AES.

Now Playmore starts to deliver complete bullshit ports (jp. 2k2-PS2 version for ex.) and with a delay way off bearable tolerances.
I personally can't and dont want to wait 7 months for a port. That is TOO LONG. Of course I know they have to maintain their arcade sales so dont start arguing with me here, I know why the delay is there. But that isn't the point I'm making here anyway:

Some of us never get to see an arcade version of a game. Those guys might be alright with the "Arranged" mode in PS2-version.

But what about the majority? The games come from the arcade world.
Asia is most likely going to play the games on arcade-cabinet forever.
Most video material is from there. Most in-depth gameplay hints are from there.

Now imagine we get an "arranged" PS2 version..... we have a different game then!

I think the ONLY proper way to go around all this trouble IS TO STAY arcade-perfect! Do not bother with incomplete balancing attempts or stupid changes to gameplay. Stay REAL!

--Blast

[SonicTempest]

Let me just clarify to everyone before you start jumping on each other -

Arrange gameplay mode is an OPTION. It can be turned off if you want the arcade gameplay with all its glitches/imbalances intact.

[Tel]

Let me just clarify to everyone before you start jumping on each other -

Arrange gameplay mode is an OPTION. It can be turned off if you want the arcade gameplay with all its glitches/imbalances intact.

Exactly there. Just as the PS2 GGXX#Reload characters are identical to the arcade version, only with Kliff, Justice and the EX/SP characters. This Arrange mode is basically SNKP's way of trying to fix up XI after its arcade release for online players. Just as how they keep the original gameplay for people who want to practice for the arcades.

It's also possible the Arrange mode could hint at how XII's gameplay balances would be like.

[Iie-Kyo]

You still want to talk about 2k3? Ok.
One thing. 2k3 game speed is slower.
If Gato gets so much lag, he must have something else to compenstate.
Can Gato do stand D, b, C, *2 A in XI? Is Gato's p, A able to grab opponents in the air?

In 2k3, he "kept up" with the game's speed, barring the overpowered A - S tiers that made him almost pointless to use. I admit they took out that first combo you mentioned, and them getting rid of the ability for his + p, A to grab opponents in midair is a good idea. But at the lost of a couple of little things, he gained way too many in return.

As I pointed out, in XI, Gato's normals are TOO fast. I guess I failed to make that clear earlier. Way too many of his XI normals and specials have zero startup, zero recovery, and zero risk. That's why I was so hard on his suggested tone-downs for the Arranged PS2 XI, because right now about 90% of Gato's stuff can be done for FREE with good to high priority to back it up.

And in regards to the arcade vs. console debate, I also was a proponent of the DC version of SF3 3s, because it WAS the fixed version. Unfortunately, Capcom failed to follow up with a fixed version in the arcades to keep up with the DC fixes, and methinks that's what pissed players off.

I'll probably stick to playing Arranged mode in at home (the Unholy Three are probably gonna get the most noticeable nerfs, so unless you whore them all day for tourney play, you won't notice a difference) because I like the fact that SNKP went out of its way to "patch" the game for the PS2. IF I find Arranged mode is screwing up my timing and whatnot then I'll switch back. Honestly, I find the claims of how Arranged mode is going to ruin peoples' ability to play Arcade mode to be overexaggerated.

[Perfect Stranger]

Let me just clarify to everyone before you start jumping on each other -

Arrange gameplay mode is an OPTION. It can be turned off if you want the arcade gameplay with all its glitches/imbalances intact.

Quoted again for emphasis.

I'm not really seeing what the issue is here: Judging from the 2k3 PS2 port, there probably will be an arcade gameplay version and a ps2 mode gameplay version.

Making an entirely new subforum based on the ps2 version seems largely unnecessary.

[Empyrian]

I know there are 2 modes in the PS2 version.
The point of contention was that the Arranged mode is made out to be the *correct* version of XI.

It is naive to think that by screwing the Kings, you get balanced XI.

Introducing the law of the jungle where predator meets prey. A predator can be a prey to another predator and vice versa. Now imagine removing one chain of the food chain. What do we get?

The prey of the removed predator gets bigger/stronger in terms of population.

Now imagine Duck and Malin getting played more now since the predators are gone....

As I pointed out, in XI, Gato's normals are TOO fast. I guess I failed to make that clear earlier. Way too many of his XI normals and specials have zero startup, zero recovery, and zero risk and about 90% of Gato's stuff can be done for FREE with good to high priority to back it up.

Will I get posts like, "Man, Duck's grab is so long range, he is so safe! His down A is so cheap! He just kills everyone! the S tier!" now?

Or "Malin is so safe! Her LDM is insane!" instead?

Perhaps the most important thing that will happen is, when the predators are gone, the A tiers will get boosted and oh dear Kyo is there...

Oh wait, NGBC Kyo is in the game too... XD

Then the Kyos will be S tier?

Does he need to be nerfed then?

Of course not, right? XD

[Max]

I'm actually more concerned about how are they going to nerf Shion & Magaki for the player's version to use.

I hope they don't nerf them to the depths of oblivion like they did in NeoWave & in NGBC. I really don't want to see how those two would rank below tier B+.

[Shirakani]

I know there are 2 modes in the PS2 version.
The point of contention was that the Arranged mode is made out to be the *correct* version of XI.

It is naive to think that by screwing the Kings, you get balanced XI.

Introducing the law of the jungle where predator meets prey. A predator can be a prey to another predator and vice versa. Now imagine removing one chain of the food chain. What do we get?

The prey of the removed predator gets bigger/stronger in terms of population.

Now imagine Duck and Malin getting played more now since the predators are gone....

As I pointed out, in XI, Gato's normals are TOO fast. I guess I failed to make that clear earlier. Way too many of his XI normals and specials have zero startup, zero recovery, and zero risk and about 90% of Gato's stuff can be done for FREE with good to high priority to back it up.

Will I get posts like, "Man, Duck's grab is so long range, he is so safe! His down A is so cheap! He just kills everyone! the S tier!" now?

Or "Malin is so safe! Her LDM is insane!" instead?

Perhaps the most important thing that will happen is, when the predators are gone, the A tiers will get boosted and oh dear Kyo is there...

Oh wait, NGBC Kyo is in the game too... XD

Then the Kyos will be S tier?

Does he need to be nerfed then?

Of course not, right? XD

If the Kyos were S tier, then yes, they need to be, along w/ Duck and Malin, et al.

The ideal balance is to NOT have an S tier at ALL. You'd have everyone on A or B and everyone can beat anyone where skill is the only deciding factor. That's the sort of rebalance i personally want to see. I'm not saying they should nerf Oswald, Kula and Gato to oblivion, i'm saying nerf them down to where most everyone else is, and for chars on C-E tiers, lift them UP to where everyone is.

What you'd want is to have everyone more or less on an even playing field so that in tournament games, it isn't who uses the S ranked chars and abuses their advantages the best is the winner...no, it's OVERALL SKILL that's the winner.

Currently, a lot of high level matches are simply who can use the S ranked chars the most effectively. You don't see lower tier chars in use much, why? Coz it's moot, no matter how good you are you're still not EFFECTIVE enuf.

[Perfect Stranger]

Thread locked as per request of thread originator.

Although I really should have noticed it sooner. XD There needs to be a more attention grabbing way of notifying me of pms ;p