Team Management

Strats, combos, technical discussion.
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Team Management

Post by Iie-Kyo » Sat Apr 08, 2006 09:53

I noticed this game places a bigger emphasis on skilled switchouts and knowing WHEN to bring in the right guy for the right situation, knowing when to bring in the leader in the middle of a match instead of the end, or when to bring him in extremely early for whatever reason. XI seems to also place a bigger emphasis on RESOURCE MANAGEMENT than the previous KoFs, since 1) you don't start off with full stock like in 2k3 and 2) characters in general (except for Gato) have a harder time building stock and 3) you have a meter that builds no matter what happens to you, which is probably THE most important aspect of this game.

So how do you go about managing your team and the resources that you have to work with? What do you do with your first? Do you place a battery there, do you start off with a leader? When do you usually use skill stock? Super cancels only? Saving shifts? Quick shifts even if the entire thing is blocked?

From what I can tell, the only reason I've been doing better than a decent number of people I've been challenging here is because of this concept. This is what I usually do when I play a match in terms of team and resource allocation:

Let the first character be the battery and the damage sponge. Use someone who has at least moderate defense and can do good damage with or without stock. Preferably they should be better at building stock than your other two characters. I almost NEVER use a saving shift with the first guy because of the big problem: by the time you get the two skill stock to use the saving shift, your character will be pretty much dead.

Using the saving shift to gtfo is pointless at this point because you're gonna have a messed up character with almost no life when you switch him out. He's a walking liability. You are essentially shooting yourself in the foot keeping a character with zero life alive, because it's almost guaranteed that once he gets popped back in, he will die to something stupid, and right there you lose your momentum AND a shitload of your judgement when it counts.

If anything, with my first guy, I only use one skill stock and at best two power stocks, I try to use characters with really good hit confirms (Kyo, Iori, Ryo, etc.) before I use their DMs, but if anything, I try (emphasis on the word try, I DO get stupid sometimes with it) to save the stock for the other non-leader guy. Skill stock is usually used for either a supercancel or a really fast quick shift into my other non-leader character, whom I switch out almost immediately back to the first character after the combo is finished. I then try to do as MUCH damage as possible with the first and let him die.

While they're busy switching out their guys and letting you whittle out their other two people, you've got two fresh characters, and if you learned to conserve correctly, then you now have three-four powerstocks with one-two skill stocks. IMO, you're probably MUCH better off than the other guy, especially if you picked a leader with a ghey LDM that allows for free juggles off of quick shifts, saving shifts and basically anything that sends them flying.

At this point it's all about learning when to do a skill shift/super cancel/dream cancel combo and basically using the other character as support for quick-shift mixups, and to save your ass if you do something that leaves it WIDE open. At this point, instead of making like everyone else and saving the leader for absolute last, I usually try to dance the two characters around, bringing in the leader to do the damage and get the judgement while letting the other one harass the opponent.

And again, the main thing I do is to let the second one die once he's out of life. Saving him when he's almost dead is pointless unless his presence was essential for your team (perhaps he's good at countering that turtling Athena/Kensou player, or maybe he matches Gato in terms of speed and priority, who knows).

At this point, whatever I do, I try to not let the leader come in with less than 2 stock. In this KoF more than 2k3, your leader is the gamebreaker and one who will help with the win (hence the reason why he's called a LEADER). A leader coming in with < 2 stock at a pivotal point in the match (perhaps you were Gato and were trying to whore his qcf x 2 + P DM too much) - generally the last 30 or so seconds is extremely detrimental.

The way this system works gives people who don't think about this concept a great way to shoot themselves in the foot when they lose a character, and I say more power to those who actually REALIZE this. Sometimes I see even in JP match vids the reckless abandon in which QSes and whatnot are used, and how some of these guys seem to treat it like a KoF with "some extra damage you can do at the end of a combo".

So whatcha think? How do you run your team?

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Post by AcidicEnema » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:05

I think a lot really matters on the team you use, and the team strategy you're gna rely on. IMO XI is to KOF what MvC2 was to the versus series- a game that is quite different (arguably XI isn't *that* big a change, but meh... sophistry, i say) from its predecessors because of the team dynamic.

I think that the primary QS-combos that your team is capable generally are what defines the dynamic of your team. For example, Maxima/Oswald pairings are almost always gna see Maxima on point, starting the match, ready to land the 1 skill/no stock TOD. DL as leader is almost always gonna benefit best if he can be slotted into a 1 on 1, 'showdown' scenario. Eliz+Larf makes most sense if you have the 'throwaway' first character, that you mention. Gato/Oswald, from what I hear, is one of the, if not 'the' most powerful pairing in the game with Gato on point.

*Begins to realise how almost all the examples he raises involve Oswald, whom he doesn't use and starts to seriously consider learning Oswald*

But yeah. Empy pointed out to me how certain 'stunners' work best as starters (Maxima, Kyo, Gato, Malin, Kim, Shen Woo) and how certain stunners work best as finishers (Oswald, Elizabeth, Duck). So, yeah, if you have a team with two or more 'stunners', its always gna make more sense having the starters on point.

Another thing that also makes a difference is how dying characters give 1 stock, which can be crucial. I know a particular Gato (leader) player *cough* *cough* makes sure that Gato dies last so that he always has enough stocks to LDM the crap out of you.

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Post by Eczema » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:41

Wow, I never realised how complex tagging was in this game. Whenever I see people play XI in my arcade they just play it like normal KOF with no tagging. It's probably why 2K2 is still so much more popular than XI here. IMO XI is a big leap in terms of battle system and players aren't prepared to adapt.

Anyway, I usually save stocks for my leader.

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Post by Slapper Joe » Sat Apr 08, 2006 16:17

Actually I've noticed a move away from this 'accepted' stuff over the last several weeks over here. Oswald is by far the most popular character, and in turn the most popular leader, and interestingly enough he starts a lot of matches (Yes, leader Oswald first off the bat.) And as strange as it sounds it works well. Easy to dictate pace early on, using saving shift on a character you want to keep and allows the picking of an appropriate midgame character a.) to control game and advantage already built or to b.) build meter/reset game. This obviously allows the leader two bytes at the cherry, quite interesting if you have an appropriate leader (and there are a few who could fit into this gameplan.)

I am still a bit disappointed that players games really don't change much once their opponent has 2 skill stocks. Too many people allow free saving shifts to happen, so much so as you actively try to get yout character to take a hit. Pileing on generic throw abuse is the solution in this situation but no-one really seems to use it (I'm sure it would happen if throws were SF3/NGBC style.) I guess that'll be the next step over here.. Or 2-in-1ing into counters in obvious QS situations, that'd be neat.

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Post by J]-[UN » Sat Apr 08, 2006 17:09

I usually try and dish out as much damage with my first character, then let him/her die for the stock.

No matter what, ALWAYS have 2 characters alive, when your 2nd character is almost dead, TAG HIM OUT. Saving shift/surprise high-low game with Quick Shift is essential..... I know a lot of people who lost matches they could have won because they were silly enough not to tag out their nearly dead 2nd character even though they had the chance to do so, then get raped by the opponent's 2 characters doing high-low games on his ass with QS.

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Post by J]-[UN » Sat Apr 08, 2006 17:12

If your opponent has 2 skill stocks and he whiffed , just do a DM, then QS halfway if possible to force the opponent to save shift.

Sometimes you can bait a save shift, eg , Terry, StandC (opp save shifts), quickly do power geyser...it'll hit the incoming character.

Or King, StandD *pause* dfD *pause* (as soon as you see a blue flash, do her qcf, hcb B DM) etc etc

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Post by AcidicEnema » Sat Apr 08, 2006 17:50

Ack, it would be easier if Saving Shift attacks didn't have such high priority.

I used to do stand C> C Uppercut with Ryo against opponents who I knew would saving shift after the C. Problem was that half the time, the C Uppercut would still lose =\

On the bright side, anything> Multirang (most notably, b+C> Multirang) with Hayate option selects against saving shifts. Even if they SS, the Multirang is sure to get the incoming character.

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Re: Team Management

Post by Derrace » Sat Apr 08, 2006 19:07

Iie-Kyo wrote: And again, the main thing I do is to let the second one die once he's out of life. Saving him when he's almost dead is pointless unless his presence was essential for your team (perhaps he's good at countering that turtling Athena/Kensou player, or maybe he matches Gato in terms of speed and priority, who knows).
Hmm, on a whole I change my char when I find that I would have problems out-jumping or out-poking a char. It's also based on how "comfortable" I am using one character against the opponent's present character.

I use Duolon, Duckking, Ozwald (Leader), I start with Duolon to build gauge and press in the start, or will swap to Ducking if I am facing chars which crazy jump D like gato, and well timed ones from Iori. Both of my chars can do nasty combos without Power Stock and make excellent batteries. Once I get 1 skill stock, I will try to punish then with Duolon/Oswald combo, or go for a stun combo with Duck/Duolon.

as for your bit on letting the char die.. Depending on who I am using. I would try to keep Oswald (my 2nd char) alive if possible. Nasty LDM combo, plus crazy ace combos...knowing I can tag him in for a QS combo all the more makes him an incentive to keep alive. When using these three, I try to all 3 alive base on these circumstances:

1) If I don't have a skill stock and my duolon is getting trashed,
2) I still have a decent amount of health (say 1/2 to 1/4 left) so that I would at least have a chance to use him when I get a skill stock. This is where that "all-I-need-is-one-light-punch-to-connect" nasty combo with Oswald comes in.

I would swap him for:
a) Oswald if I have more 2 or more Power stocks and the skill bar almost reaching half or more. nice Stand A, LDM combo.
b) Ducking so that I can tank/build power bar while waiting for the skill bars to charge/deal nice DM combos if I have 1 or more power stock.

I normally swap for ducking.

Depending on my opponent, I do sometimes try to get the most out of my duolon, i.e letting him inflict the most amount of damage and letting him die. I will not swap him out if I have just a tiny bit of life.. no point.. as mentioned by Iie-Kyo that you would somehow get him killed when he comes in after losing one char due to crossup or what have you.

**If my 2nd char swapped in was Oswald, and as mentioned earlier, I would try to keep him alive no matter what. Be it using power stocks to block, counter E, tag out. or just using saving mode (to duck in this case). Even if he has only a bit of life left.. Remember, all I need is to set him up for a QS combo. He doesn't really have to fight, he just needs to be alive so I can QS him in.

But I totally disagree with letting your 2nd char die. Not having the ablity to do saving mode would cost you heaps. You come in with ur 3rd guy with nice full hp (or a huge chunk of it). Damage scaling is not on your side. You are subjected to QS, supercancel, and dream cancel combos. Even having your 2nd guy with just 1cm of hp on your health bar can do wonders.

Besides, you can start to run the clock down (usually the last 6-7 secs) try to run the clock down if judgement is on your side, and you have two chars (1 nice hp, 1 almost dead). Play your almost dead char like you never before.. or just be gay and be ultra defensive or jumping away from your opponent whenever you can. even if he dies, you would still have a nice healthy char to play the last 2-3seconds.

*Disclaimer: This last bit only works if you are pro :-P *

just my two tokens :3

*edited to include some bits (**) that I forgotten to mention.
Last edited by Derrace on Sat Apr 08, 2006 19:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by AcidicEnema » Sat Apr 08, 2006 19:17

IMO, if judgement hangs in the balance, playing with a 1 cm life character is a bad idea, since if he dies judgement will swing in the opponent's favour (killing a character swings judgement a lot) and he will have the offense advantage against your incoming character.

I don't think its matter of skill. There isn't much of a payoff for using a 1 cm character to run the clock (except for psychological/frustration) and there's very big risk in losing a character near time out.

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Post by Iie-Kyo » Sun Apr 09, 2006 00:30

Slapper Joe wrote:Actually I've noticed a move away from this 'accepted' stuff over the last several weeks over here. Oswald is by far the most popular character, and in turn the most popular leader, and interestingly enough he starts a lot of matches (Yes, leader Oswald first off the bat.) And as strange as it sounds it works well. Easy to dictate pace early on, using saving shift on a character you want to keep and allows the picking of an appropriate midgame character a.) to control game and advantage already built or to b.) build meter/reset game. This obviously allows the leader two bytes at the cherry, quite interesting if you have an appropriate leader (and there are a few who could fit into this gameplan.)
It seems quite obvious Oswald's great for team synergy. I still am hoping that more strategies involving other characters are discussed, because Oswald is just one character in a 30-something person cast, and a lot of people are well aware of how well he can use the system to his advantage. But then again, he is a crowning example of how SNKP managed to develop a character to properly utilize the system, rather than to abuse it (2k3 Duo Lon is a prime example of a character that inadvertently could abuse it.
I am still a bit disappointed that players games really don't change much once their opponent has 2 skill stocks. Too many people allow free saving shifts to happen, so much so as you actively try to get yout character to take a hit. Pileing on generic throw abuse is the solution in this situation but no-one really seems to use it (I'm sure it would happen if throws were SF3/NGBC style.) I guess that'll be the next step over here.. Or 2-in-1ing into counters in obvious QS situations, that'd be neat.
Yep. I'm trying to figure out what characters have good "saving shift stuffers". So far the only character I've had fun stuffing saving shifts with is Terry and his POWAH GAIZAH. Kula can do the same thing, if you're into shoto-lolis. Been trying to figure out if Kyo's Shinken can stuff baited saving shifts. And yes, generic throw abuse will eat Saving Shift abusers and CD Counter abusers for free. That reminds me - why do I hardly see people using CD Counters these days...
AcidicEnema wrote:Another thing that also makes a difference is how dying characters give 1 stock, which can be crucial. I know a particular Gato (leader) player *cough* *cough* makes sure that Gato dies last so that he always has enough stocks to LDM the crap out of you.
Yeah, I lost to a Kula scrub because of that. I got cocky when I managed to whittle down two of their characters to a 1-life hero situation, then he brought in Kula (I think he was smart enough to CD Counter me when I was trying to rushdown-cheese him). I managed to do 50% damage to Kula (take a wild guess as to who I was using to beat him down with). He saving shifts to a guy, I kill it. Next guy comes in, I kill him.

Kula comes back in with 5 bars. Scrub started whoring hop Cs and I kinda ended up dying. My next guy (Iori) had difficulty stopping him cos he was shoto-ing with her and turtling like a bitch. By the time my third came in I expended a lot of my stock trying to break his guard so all he did was run away and throw LDMs in the hope they'd hit. Now I have no qualms about cheesing a near-dead character, because the potential damage it can cause to people who enjoy whoring LDMs is insane. I've learned to kill him NOW so I don't have to worry about that situation till later.

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Post by Iie-Kyo » Sun Apr 09, 2006 00:56

Making this a two-part post so quoting won't be such a bitch.
J]-[UN wrote:No matter what, ALWAYS have 2 characters alive, when your 2nd character is almost dead, TAG HIM OUT. Saving shift/surprise high-low game with Quick Shift is essential..... I know a lot of people who lost matches they could have won because they were silly enough not to tag out their nearly dead 2nd character even though they had the chance to do so, then get raped by the opponent's 2 characters doing high-low games on his ass with QS.
Hmm, I'd actually tag a character out at roughly 25% life left. This gives me some leeway in case I QS the 25% character in and I mess up the mixup. I can at least take some damage instead of getting killed by a spammed A. But yeah, I'm trying to get the high low game down with QS's, I know they're pretty damn deadly in the right hands...
Derrick wrote:But I totally disagree with letting your 2nd char die. Not having the ablity to do saving mode would cost you heaps. You come in with ur 3rd guy with nice full hp (or a huge chunk of it). Damage scaling is not on your side. You are subjected to QS, supercancel, and dream cancel combos. Even having your 2nd guy with just 1cm of hp on your health bar can do wonders.

Besides, you can start to run the clock down (usually the last 6-7 secs) try to run the clock down if judgement is on your side, and you have two chars (1 nice hp, 1 almost dead). Play your almost dead char like you never before.. or just be gay and be ultra defensive or jumping away from your opponent whenever you can. even if he dies, you would still have a nice healthy char to play the last 2-3seconds.
I think in regards to the second character, it's mostly about the timing and situation at this point. Most importantly, I wouldn't switch him out if he's close to dead, I'd switch him out at about 25%, for the reasons I stated in above. Also, if I somehow have a HUGE judgement lead, I'd actually let the dead character die as quickly as possible. Many matches at my arcade are lost because they try to turtle away with the near-dead character the 10-20 seconds, only to lose it to something stupid.

Then the final character comes in being subjected to some kinda crossup attempt and right there you've suddenly thrown the match, all because you were trying to pussy away the win.

If anything, do as much damage as possible, but if your second's gonna die, I say let it with the judgement by your side. Especially if you already are controlling the pace of the match from your previous fighting in that match. While this may get rid of one "annoyance" for your opponent, remember that as I've said before, sometimes you're gonna QS him in again, and more likely than not, he may end up dying to something stupid, making you lose your judgement and momentum.

Another thing I like about the QS system in XI - to take advantage of the system to its fullest, it's mostly pure skill and timing. Unlike the 2k3 switchout system which can be abused by any low level player (fireball with two buttons that are right next to each other, gee that's freakin hard to do), the skill switchout is execution intensive, and to take advantage of it you have to know how your characters' moves hit (at least the buttons you're gonna use for the switches), when to hit, what angle you need to be coming in with for the switch in, and a lot of other things that make this system a bit more deeper than the previous ones.

2k2's MAX mode IMO is the only system that can match it, but that's for a different reason since some characters can utilize it to play insane high/low games (Mish Barnessar not withstanding).

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Post by SonicWaver » Sun Apr 09, 2006 09:21

i disagree on some thing.

my 2 cents:

If you are a good defensive person (so ur chars dont take lots of damage) and play deffensively, ITS BETTER to leave ur three characters alive ( no matter how low they life bars are) because in this type of game, U may always win/lose due to the judgement after time expires. (and as a good defensive player, u are 99% calling the timer to expire)


I almost always get the timer expired and judgement bar makes me win most of these times (and due to the fact that i keep my 3 chars, so i dont give any important judgement gain to the opponent)

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Post by J]-[UN » Sun Apr 09, 2006 15:05

thats not good...if you make a mistake before time expires and end up losing 1-2 characters in quick succession, its instant loss for you (especially if the opponent has one of those cheesy LDMs)

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Post by Empyrian » Sun Apr 09, 2006 17:32

I think, the more you concentrate on QS combos, the less you will do/able to do SS.

For me, I don't actively keep my 1st character alive for as long as possible. But when I am reduced to 2 characters, I try to keep both of them even if they have low life.

Until I have about 3 stocks,(and only 1 skill stock most of the time.) my 2nd character inevitably dies. XD

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Post by ~!T.T!~ » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:16

the teams that i've played in XI emphasise the team's leader. For example, when i was still using duolon/shen/vanessa, i'd use vanessa first as a battery, get a few stocks and when she dies, DL comes in with enough stock to own with instant death combo, then shen just basically picks up the pieces since his combos do godly damage. QSing wasn't a big part of the gameplay, but there were times where it did really, really help

atm, kula/malin/vanessa (leader) for me really needs vanessa to be played last. This gives her enough stock if she's the only one alive for her DCs. also, tagging here is rad good because both kula and malin can set up for her infinite.....so basically, this team revolves around vanessa, but i guess it really works.....


so i guess if you emphasise on your leader, it's best to leave him/her 2nd (if you have a battery 1st) or last.....

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