Is this "cheap"?

Franz Bonaparta · Post by **Franz Bonaparta** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:16

AcidicEnema wrote:Unlike Empyrian, I don't think Franz's post was offensive. However, I'll back Empy up on this- more often than not, Singaporeans do use throws and incorporate them into their strategy. Ah bengs swearing at you for throwing are our equivalent of backwater American hicks... calling you cheap for throwing.

We do, however, have a culture that heavily encourages offense, and may occassionally yell "HUM CHEE (coward)" at anybody who turtles or plays defensively. But even then, they'll just try to adapt and play on.

cinz is also correct. Try it next time. Shouting CHAO CHEE BYE loudly gives you 1/4 super gauge. NI NA BEI gives 1/3 skill stock. TA MA DE allows tagged out characters to recover life.

Thanks didnt mean to offend or anything, I cant say that...im not Hokkienese, if i try to do that some random guy would hit me until im siao thinking i mocked them...

BTW, Emp... thats normal to have initial thoughts like having a car accident in a specific country and concluding that they suk ass when it comes to driving... Thats normal, take as an example, some1 enrolling to the compulsory Singaporean military service, only to be bullied and be picked on by his Captain. What's the thought running through that person's head? "Oh my god, this sucks, my captain is a dikhead, this so freakin depressing/boring!!The sooner i finish this thing up the better!" Our judgement changes overtime as we discover new factors, so my initial thought on Sporean style of play: Offensive minded, u might never know that this might change overtime. As more and more people in this community try to convince me that Sporean players dont always play just to land 75%dmg/59 hit combos, my thoughts on the matter might significantly change as well. I was telling my experience based on facts and you accused me for being "offensive"? you could just corrected me and give me the "updated" information instead of saying unnecessary things. With all due respect sir, I look up to all of the seniors in this community and I never try to insult or offend them, as i said before I was just telling my experience, you were the one who took it too seriously and drifted far from the topic....

Eh btw, whats with this new trend of hating KGO players?? Sure, they're hard to defeat but why why ppl "discriminate" them??? Its a freedom of choice ppl, let em pick which characters to use.

~!T.T!~ · Post by **~!T.T!~** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 13:38

the difference with KGO players is that, as many people see it, dont "work" for their wins, but simply let the characters do half of the winning for them. It's more like being lazy and cheating the government of loads of welfare while someone else in their exact same position goes out and gets a job, but has to work their arse off for the same payoff.....

Eczema · Post by **Eczema** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 13:39

wats KGO? >_>

Post by **SonicTempest** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 14:24

Eczema wrote:wats KGO? >_>

Kula/Gato/Oswald

InFeCt|oN · Post by **InFeCt|oN** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 15:26

Kula is small and cute okay! >:o

Iie-Kyo · Post by **Iie-Kyo** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 09:50

Perfect Stranger - Thanks for the "back the truck up" thing here. I guess the main thing is my primary question's more of a "Is throwing acceptable?" sort of thing. The line between what's fun, what's cheap, and what's "honorable" or not is a VERY thin one to draw, and as you pointed out, it greatly varies upon who says it.

But it is to be expected of a discussion that basically asks for the varying opinon of many people. Many of the opinions on whether x character, y tactic, or z bug/glitch is "cheap" varies highly upon the player's gaming ethics (if I can do it and get away with it, I'll do it vs. that looks kinda ghey and scrubby, I'll try find a better way to do it) and whether or not the player IS there to win (I don't care what others think or not and whether or not the guy who's challenging me is gonna take me outside and beat the shit out of me for playing KGO, I'LL WIN vs. I already know KGO is ghey and how easy it is for me to win with 'em, let's give myself a slight handicap and practice my skill against these guys who use KGO to see if I can out-think them; I'll try (insert lower tiered characters here)).

The funny thing is about 2k3 DL, he's got that same thing going for him that SSF2T Gouki had, ghey and horribly borken, but back then people actually chose to socially accept his "banning". I just find it strange these days, I hear expert players making fun of tournies banning something that is inherently borken but a part of the game (banning the use of 2k3 Duo Lon) when such an action was voluntarily taken to "balance" out the gameplay back during the SSF2T days.

~!T.T!~ wrote:the difference with KGO players is that, as many people see it, dont "work" for their wins, but simply let the characters do half of the winning for them. It's more like being lazy and cheating the government of loads of welfare while someone else in their exact same position goes out and gets a job, but has to work their arse off for the same payoff.....

And I'm fairly sure the people who do such cheating (this is for those who knowingly and repeatedly do it, mind you) will use a very much similar excuse to what the KGO players are using. "Hey, if it's a part of life and I can get away with it, why shouldn't I? No one's getting hurt!" Very similar to "If it's part of a game even if it's a bug or something that's obviously overlooked/overpowered, why shouldn't I use it? I'm not hurting anyone!"

Similar trains of thought - the reason why the real life definition is easier to see is that there IS a physical loss of others' welfare. You cheat the government cos you're lazy, you waste their money and hurt many people in the process. You play a top tier team in KoF, you essentially ruin the metagame for your arcade scene (play KGO to stay competitive or die is a good mentality here, much like 2k3's play Duo Lon or die mantra) and possibly ruin the ability for players to learn how to play, rather than learning how to win.

In either case, seems like the only people I'm pissing off at my arcade are the players who can't handle such a simple game mechanic (and these are the same players who use the usual hop rushdown techniques with insane wtfbbq high low mixups). Don't forget TT, the reason why throws have "high priority" in this game is that they're essentially as strong as command throws, and command throws have certain properties that make them as powerful as they are...

Franz Bonaparta · Post by **Franz Bonaparta** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:16

~!T.T!~ wrote:the difference with KGO players is that, as many people see it, dont "work" for their wins, but simply let the characters do half of the winning for them. It's more like being lazy and cheating the government of loads of welfare while someone else in their exact same position goes out and gets a job, but has to work their arse off for the same payoff.....

You sounded like V for Vendeta

Ohh btw... I heard there's a new trend of ditching Oswald for Eiji now?? Hmm most ppl abuse Eiji's tele to throw mix-up, I dun mind that...IMO Gato is slightly deadlier,faster,more damaging+confusing mix-ups than Kula...Based on my experience, Kula players tend to go for all-out-offense while Gato is more of a great all-around char.. sound defense, rushdowns, overheads and tick throws. I dun say thye're "cheap" they just have bigger advantages compared to the rest of the cast. Its like comparing,say Spurs to New York Knicks, u cant say say Spurs are cheap they just hold a much bigger advantages in different aspects of the game than the Knicks. I kind of agreed to what Iie-Kyo said...They are not even near the level of 2K3 DL or Akuma, KGO are just plain good but there is a HUGE possiblity in beating them given the chance of KGO's dominance+ability...

~!T.T!~ · Post by **~!T.T!~** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:25

Iie-Kyo: hmmm, i think you took my comments the wrong way. Anyway, what i meant was that what i said was a generalisation of people's opinions, but not my own. I do agree that tiers are in games for an obvious reason, and KGO (imo) is not broken, nor close to it.......therefore i see no reason for someone not to use it if they wish....

and about the whole throwing thing, again, i have nothing against throwing. It's got more than 1 viable counter........doesnt matter if it has good priority, since they are easily breakable if you can see them coming

Empyrian · Post by **Empyrian** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 18:18

Iie-Kyo wrote: Similar trains of thought - the reason why the real life definition is easier to see is that there IS a physical loss of others' welfare. You cheat the government cos you're lazy, you waste their money and hurt many people in the process. You play a top tier team in KoF, you essentially ruin the metagame for your arcade scene (play KGO to stay competitive or die is a good mentality here, much like 2k3's play Duo Lon or die mantra) and possibly ruin the ability for players to learn how to play, rather than learning how to win.

In either case, seems like the only people I'm pissing off at my arcade are the players who can't handle such a simple game mechanic (and these are the same players who use the usual hop rushdown techniques with insane wtfbbq high low mixups). Don't forget TT, the reason why throws have "high priority" in this game is that they're essentially as strong as command throws, and command throws have certain properties that make them as powerful as they are...

Much as I detest some characters, I would not go that far to demand that they be banned or played less. One must see that even if you have the ability to enforce a ban on any character(s) in the game, it makes no sense to enforce it.

Since one is paying to play the game, you obviously have no justification to issue some mandate that he/she should adopt your stance that one should respect the players who are playing to learn/learning to play.

Learning to play and learning how to win are not mutually exclusive terms anyway.

Playing top tier teams is akin to an arms race IRL. Countries must develop strategies/weapons to counter the threat imposed by the advancement of other nations' offensive/defensive abilities.

Going UN/Greenpeace/Flower Power/Make love not war just don't work.

Using a KGO team does not guarantee a win. There are statistics to prove it. SBO, results of local tournaments in China and HK for e.g showed that you may not win just because you used a god tier team.

In SBO for instance, although there are a sizeable number of players using KGO in each qualifier, iirc none has won. XD

If top level competition results fail to convince you, then there is nothing to say.
It is possible at this point that you may skew your argument to KGO team to KGO users since the latter could also mean that you are using them separately.

In addition I don't know why people are so into insuinating that hop offensive and high low games are inferior gameplay.

Edit: Perhaps the biggest mistake you had made is this. By denouncing KGO team/players yet showing right in the 1st post that you have no qualms in slamming people.

Since both parties are playing to win, I suppose anything and everything goes. You may complain that they use KGO. They may also complain that you slam too much.

A problem easily solved if we use the "Play to win" mentality. Remember, might is right.

Iie-Kyo · Post by **Iie-Kyo** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 00:39

TT: Heh, I know, just explaining why throws are as awesome as they are.

Empyrian:

Such a socially agreed upon banning WAS enforced, you see, at both SBO and Evolution 2004 when SSF2T was available for tourney play. They flat out banned Akuma. So saying that something that is "part of the game" shouldn't be banned is incorrect on your part because it can, will, and HAS been done. Why was the banning done? Because I'm pretty sure whoever enforced the banning realized that allowing such an Akuma "arms race" in an SSF2T tourney would make it pointless to have the tourney, because it is quite clear that his move properties were NOT programmed with proper competitive play in mind, and I'm not the only one who believes so. Why was Duo Lon in XI fixed? Because SNKP acknowledged that he was a broken piece of shit in 2k3, because of what it does to the metagame of 2k3 (then again, 2k3 didn't deserve a metagame at all).

This is the reason why I lump the The Unholy Three players in their own category. Playing a character doesn't guarantee you the win, but it tips the scales in your favor (this is the reason why they're tiered higher than everyone else). Obviously someone who's has better skills but a worse character will be able to fight back, but in an even matchup with two players of equal skill, The Unholy Three or even partial teams with 2 of them in it will have a better advantage over teams that do not have them. Again, I'm pretty damn sure we're beating a dead horse with this topic when it was beaten to death in 2k3, but this seems like a somewhat trite reasoning that has been used for fighting games everywhere.

But I'll be damned if SNK doesn't beat these guys down with the nerfstick in XII like they did with Duo Lon in XI, because at the very least they know to fix borken ass characters. Of course, if their playtesting sucks as it usually does, XII will have another set of borken asses we can all get owned by.

How is this related to something as simple as pressing f + C/D? Borken asses come and go (and get nerfed to hell), but it's safe to say that a simple tactic (that IMO is not in the realm of "play to win" but rather "learn some effing basics") has been left in the KoF system for almost TEN years now goes to show that SNKP is giving a silent nod to the usefulness and how non gamebreaking a throw is.

Because unlike fighting whole or partial teams of the Unholy Three or any S-rank character in any KoF, which require quite a bit of effort on the player's part to stop (and essentially gets old fast since that's all I fight against now), countering a very simple game mechanic which is a standard part of many fighting games and having players who are supposedly experts (again, they play at a level that is above the intermediate player and some are experts) about how cheap it is doesn't make sense to me. I apologize for lumping the HK players in this group (at least the ones at my arcade), but they're the only ones who have been knowingly and adamantly vocal about my "cheap" throwing, and hence this is the reason why I've bothered starting this thread in the first place to see wtf is their problem.

Don't forget most games with throws have a reasonable grab and tech system: XI (almost 10 years going with the almost same way to get out of a grab), 3S, CvS2, and even MvC2 do. You don't hear about throw bitching there because it's an angle of attack that every character is capable of, and every character has a reasonable way of getting out of. If one character had a TOTALLY untechable throw, then yeah, I'd see why throws are cheap, but modern and good tourney-level fighting games lets you get out and even has a decent means of punishing people who go for throws.

/me goes and gets some AIR

~!T.T!~ · Post by **~!T.T!~** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 07:59

imo banning works if a character/property is game-breaking in its nature. a clear example of this is the addition of akuma in super turbo. Game was arguably the most balanced fighting game to ever be released, bar akuma.....im really still impartial about the banning of DL in korean 2k3 tourneys. I mean, sure it does insight variety in character choice, but without DL, a part of the game is there, yet not allowed to be played. Having participated in a Duolon-less tournament before, I can say that the ban was not sufficiently justified.

Likewise, im getting the feeling that a lot of people tend to frown on top tiers simply because they think top tier = broken, which is certainly not necessarily the case. Nothing to our knowledge in XI is gamebreaking (yes, i'll even go so far as saying the oswald bug is not as big an issue as people put it out to be), so therefore if strat A helps you counteract strat B, then why not use it?

Tel · Post by **Tel** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:24

Gotta agree with you on this. The top 3 characters in XI have some stuff that makes them abusive, but in no way broken. Granted, it's easier to win a match using KGO, but it's far from a guaranteed win. Some people just frown on using top tier characters.

I don't find throws broken or cheap. But I don't like the idea of KOing someone using basic throws, chipping damage or simply turtling until timeout once we're down to the last 10 seconds. I've lost plenty of matches in XI because I didn't turtle when the timer was running out, but I don't mind, because in a situation like that, it meant the match was a pretty close one.

Derrace · Post by **Derrace** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 07:34

you know what is cheap? your opponent bashing the buttons like a crazy monkey while sitting next to you when are doing Duolon's LDM Combo. Instead of the usual Death combo I get, I still get distracted at times and I think that's just plain cheap. If we were playing on those astro city dual machines, I wouldnt give a damn if he was jumping on the machine.

Just trying to distract someone to get out of a otherwise impossible to escape combo is just

and cheap.

also, I hate those arcade guys that complain and whine about every single thing and won't simply shut their gap whether they win or lose (ever so often i tell you). complaining about people poking, people grabbing, malin's LDM being rubbish damage and requiring no skill to use it... bah, and all the cheesy gay stuff he does is fine because he knows how to execute those...anything cheat he doesnt know or cant do, he deems as cheap...

. don't you guys hate that?

Eczema · Post by **Eczema** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 13:39

cheap is 25 cents for 2 credits.

J]-[UN · Post by **J]-[UN** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 15:06

w0rd.