Is this "cheap"?

Iie-Kyo · Post by **Iie-Kyo** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 00:59

Derrick wrote:you know what is cheap? your opponent bashing the buttons like a crazy monkey while sitting next to you when are doing Duolon's LDM Combo. Instead of the usual Death combo I get, I still get distracted at times and I think that's just plain cheap. If we were playing on those astro city dual machines, I wouldnt give a damn if he was jumping on the machine.

Just trying to distract someone to get out of a otherwise impossible to escape combo is just and cheap.

Opponent bashing buttons to mess up your combo is poor sportsmanlike conduct. This is akin to what happens in hockey when someone is desperate to stop someone else from scoring, use your stick like a weapon and trip them up - forgot how much of a penalty that gives you, but yeah, it's childish. I've seen this happen a LOT on the Kapcom fighters side - someone doing Magnus infinite on someone else, victim's bashing buttons to purposely fuck up the guy's timing. When GGXX was out, you can bet people tried to button-sound-fuckup the other guy's Sol Dust Loop.

Man, wonder how long this kinda stuff has been going on for...

Iie-Kyo · Post by **Iie-Kyo** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 01:17

~!T.T!~ wrote:imo banning works if a character/property is game-breaking in its nature. a clear example of this is the addition of akuma in super turbo. Game was arguably the most balanced fighting game to ever be released, bar akuma.....im really still impartial about the banning of DL in korean 2k3 tourneys. I mean, sure it does insight variety in character choice, but without DL, a part of the game is there, yet not allowed to be played. Having participated in a Duolon-less tournament before, I can say that the ban was not sufficiently justified.

I disagree. The banning of Akuma is the same reason why Duo Lon was banned in 2k3. A single character making any scrub capable of winning the game with a simple 50/50 and having absolutely zero, count 'em, zero faults in their move properties begs for a banning. If we were to use your reasoning, then Akuma should be left in SSF2T tournies. A part of the game is there, yet we're not allowed to play it. Tournies without a Duo Lon = fewer games where it's all about how lucky you can get with rolling a two-sided die or flipping a coin. Hey, you can get out of it, just don't get hit by the initial string, and just guess correctly and all's good, right?

To prove how gamebreaking he is (or at least how badly he ruined the KoF metagame in his 2k3 form): 75% of the Duo Lon scrubs at our arcade in 2k3 now get thoroughly owned by higher level players in XI. Hell, they keep running back to their 2k3 machine after the higher level players own them in XI, and what do they do? Go back to playing their borken ass DL. Sometimes these scrubs won games because of how easily the characters played for them in 2k3, but there are fewer one-trick wonders in this game that allows them to even closely get away with what they were allowed to get away with in 2k3.

Likewise, im getting the feeling that a lot of people tend to frown on top tiers simply because they think top tier = broken, which is certainly not necessarily the case. Nothing to our knowledge in XI is gamebreaking (yes, i'll even go so far as saying the oswald bug is not as big an issue as people put it out to be), so therefore if strat A helps you counteract strat B, then why not use it?

We've already fleshed out as to why the Oswald bug is as potentially gamebreaking as it is, and why it was banned from use in SBO tournies. Thankfully such use is frowned upon at my arcade, so I guess that isn't a big deal here. I admit that I may be over the top about the Unholy Three every once in awhile, but that comes from having to fight them again, and again, and again, and again as part of my normal arcade visits. I can deal with them yes, simply because the individual parts of the Unholy Three are actually pretty weak compared to 2k3 Duo Lon, but I guess it's my frustration about having to fight the same goddamned 3 every time I go to arcade that's starting to show in my postings.

Heck, I admit that XI's pretty balanced (barring the annoying three) - I still don't even have a solid XI team; the main team I said I use in my other post I only use 50% of the time in pure competitive play. XI's good - it allows me to jump all over the character roster and fare well no matter who I play. Such a thing was just a dream in 2k3. Anyone remember how fun a Maxima vs. Malin matchup was?

J]-[UN · Post by **J]-[UN** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 05:20

Man I'm surprised people actually still play 2k3 T_T

Empyrian · Post by **Empyrian** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 05:23

Because in the end, good players gravitate towards the S to A tiers(and maybe a few B tiers).

For the simple fact that those characters have more options and more effective.

Slapper Joe · Post by **Slapper Joe** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:10

People really need to stop throwing around ST Akuma as a comparision to Duo Lon. As much as I hate DL, I don't recall him being guaranteed a win against most of the cast as soon as they entered blockstun.

J]-[UN · Post by **J]-[UN** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 16:38

Actually I kinda feared Goro more than duolon cos it was the same 50/50 guessing game ....and you couldn't risk tagging against Goro either T_T

Iie-Kyo · Post by **Iie-Kyo** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 19:32

Slapper Joe wrote:People really need to stop throwing around ST Akuma as a comparision to Duo Lon. As much as I hate DL, I don't recall him being guaranteed a win against most of the cast as soon as they entered blockstun.

Once Duo Lon gets you in blockstun and you don't have a CD Counter - mind you you'll be at a meter disadvantage against Duo Lon no matter what:
- Pressure with

+ P x 3 into

+ K, all of which cannot be easily counter rolled against
- This builds omgwtf bar, usually 1 full bar
- Insane and difficult to read teleport mixups from the

+ A x 3
- You cannot fuck up this move once you start it from his broken

B foot - It's so fast that even if you miss two hits it'll combo
- If you guess wrong (btw, you're still in blockstun), hello 50/50.
- If you guess wrong agen (and btw, skilled Duo Lon players can make you guess wrong even MORE than just the basic teleport, std C, teleport 50/50), another 50/50, and don't forget two of these combos give him maybe 1.5 - 1.75 bar
- You got out? CD counter you back with the free bar he built, which starts the

50/50 like no one's business
- Of course, he can also make you stuck with all his other priority buttons, and from our experience, every single button he has is ridiculously fucked up in some way. Safe to say my friend and I have a lot of 2k3-based discussions in real life of like "most characters can do X and Y, but you can't do that against Duo Lon because it's Duo Lon". Pretty silly if 99% of the cast is subjected to normal game mechanics and things that usually work, but 1 character can get around, you know - everyone.

- Feel like being a pussy?

+ K and

+ K all day. One sets up for his 50/50 again, btw.
- Let's not forget his wonderful switchout, invincibility, instant start up, high priority, cannot be beaten. Characters who have anything close to this cannot abuse it as well as he can because: refer to first few points about omgwtf bar building.

459182059185 different ways to do his 50/50 with zero effort and more importantly, zero risk. I've lost matches to scrubs because I failed to roll the die properly against these guys, and these same scrubs were beating high level players because of this wonderful character. If a single character alone makes a winner out of a scrub against a high leveled player, I'd say he deserves a banning in the same vein as SSF2T Akuma.

Slapper Joe · Post by **Slapper Joe** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 23:43

If DL's dp+k on block or hit was instant win (no need for wakeup games or 50/50s at all) then they would be in the same vein, but he is not even close. It's ironic you go on about DL breaking game mechanics, ST Akuma was the originator and unsurpassed champion of it. Most of the Japanese community has a soft-ban on O.Sagat, so throw DL into that basket for it is a more sane comparison.

On this train of thought, a who's better than DL thread might be fun.

Edit: Fixing my Athena tier grammar.

Empyrian · Post by **Empyrian** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 06:03

Sorry, wrong game. XD

I am not too averse to playing against KGO and other assorted high powered/heavily advantaged teams as more often than not, these teams hone one's skills substantially in the long run.

Shirakani · Post by **Shirakani** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 13:05

Heh, throwing in my two cents here...

'Cheap' is defined, by me, as

1) abusing a move(s) that give the attacker an absolutely safe carte blanche to repeat said move(s) ad infinitum while giving the defender little to zero defense methods, or protection against said move(s). (see: Duolon 2k3).

2) abusing a bug/glitch/loophole in the game that was never intended to be part of normal gameplay, to give one an advantage in the sense that it gives the attacker an absolute safe carte blanche to repeat...yadda yadda...

That being said. Throws are not cheap. People who complain about tick throws, etc, sorry....GTFO, quit the game, jump in front of a bus. You 1) suck 2) fail 3) #1 & #2 at the same time 4) #1 & #2 at the same time on an epic scale.

Throws are part of normal gameplay. They would not have been put in the game if not meant to be used, PERIOD. It doesn't matter what YOU personally consider cheap. The fact that the game PUT THEM IN THERE, means they're meant to be used. I guess the fact that they've been put in for ALL the games to date and not been removed says something too.

Tick throwing isn't cheap, it's a valid, viable means to win. If you consider it cheap simply coz you have no defense against it, well...You suck don't you? Even in SF2, i remember there was something called throw reversal to guard against tick throwing.

Only exception to the above statement is of course, if it falls in the initially stated categories. If the tick throwing doesn't give a fair escape of chance then yes, it's cheap, and possibly a gamebreaking glitch as well. As of current KOF tho, i don't believe it falls under that category. Especially since you can tech out of a throw. Learn to defend properly and stop whining coz you suck.

[/twocentskeepthechange]

J]-[UN · Post by **J]-[UN** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 15:41

trying to escape from eiji's/gato's throw is 'kinda' hard (impossible) in between mix-ups...

AcidicEnema · Post by **AcidicEnema** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 19:42

Won't comment about the whole cheapness debate, but *nothing* is more annoying than seeing your crouch A go *through* the opponent's sprite *as* he throws you.

Yes, it happens. grrrrrrrr.

Shirakani · Post by **Shirakani** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 20:32

Or getting grabbed out of a DM that has 'invincibility on startup'....

furix · Post by **furix** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 01:41

Everything goes in a fight. Usually when I hear people complain that something I do is too good/cheap, I start doing it even more to teach them how to avoid them. If they don't learn themselves I just end up telling them.

Empyrian · Post by **Empyrian** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 06:12

Characters with ridiculous down As should get slammed, LDM hammer and etc more often as they are too used to beating everything else with it.