KOF XI tier list.

[Empyrian]

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showpos ... tcount=662

Kula > Gato?

[Slapper Joe]

That was just a Kula theory fighter breakdown, not a comparison. Gato doesn't need theory or what-if's. He is too busy being safe to care.

Anyway all that info about Palm super would be nice if it was correct. Yes palm super is punishable when it is done close by true 1-framers (i.e. not Malin's LDM, but buster wolf and shen's headbutt will work). But further back, good luck you just wasted a level of meter and a third of your life. Hopefully he will test the A version of the super next time and not the C. Can't recall people doing the C version in any other situation than a sure-hit anyways since the A has better startup as well. The range of the C is better, but when Gato OWNS the game he doesn't even need to bother taking chances like using C palm to punish.

Speaking of tiers, I'm seeing Ramon moving up. c.C>qcb+C>c.C>qcb+C>hh D->repeat pattern is strong and seems damn-near unbreakable without blowaway. And when you consider that anywhere in there a hcf+K/HH D/walk-in c.B/walk-in tiger spin can come out while your in serious negative frames there is room for worry.

Sadly just too much blatantly wrong info comes out of SRK to take any of it at face value (unless the person posting it is legit).

[Noisetank Crew]

HOW is gai A classin Japan?? I really dont see it. He really doesnt have an anti air and he has very bad vs match ups such as eiji, clark and tizoc. Anyone have any matches (new) showing Gai beasting, dont see him around much anymore.

Seems that only people who use Ramon are taiwanese players??

[Invincible Duo]

Sadly just too much blatantly wrong info comes out of SRK to take any of it at face value (unless the person posting it is legit).

you must be looking at the wrong places then.

[AcidicEnema]

HOW is gai A classin Japan?? I really dont see it. He really doesnt have an anti air and he has very bad vs match ups such as eiji, clark and tizoc. Anyone have any matches (new) showing Gai beasting, dont see him around much anymore.

Seems that only people who use Ramon are taiwanese players??

Check out the Zeronews clips (Taiwanese), available on Blastrezz site (link is in the video thread).

There's a top player there who uses Gai/Jazu/Kula. Most innovative thing about his Gai play is using d.A> f+D chain to pressure people.

[[STP]Porno]

what do you think why is yuri considered a c-d tier.

i use her as my leader ever since the release.

she has many tools others dont have.

awesome priority on her normals good crossups.

really good jumps and overall speed.

she can do good damage after a crouching light atack and her overhead.

untill now i never had the feeling of having a bad matchup against any one in the cast with her i even think shes a oswald killer (if you play really safe).

so what do you think are her flaws wich make her so low tier?



just curious

[J]-[UN]

Hmm...using fwdD as a pressure move with Gai is actually really really unsafe...that move has such huge recovery by itself you almost always have to cancel it to another move (preferably qcb E) if the guy rolls or you're going to get hit by a combo...IMO its a lot safer (and effective) to keep the pressure up sticking with normals.

Gai is probably A class because of his huge stun potential,huge damage, he can set up almost any kind of QS (even his uf finisher sets up a small juggle) and great normals. You need to zone very carefully with him though because you never want to get into a position where you trap yourself in the opponents 'safe' jump attack zone.....sorta like playing Ramon.

About Yuri, the only flaws I can think of right now is she's one of the weaker QS combo setups and she's predictable. And she doesnt have an uber double hop attack.

[Derrace]

IMHO Duolon should be a lot higher than C.

In fact, Duolon should be A if not S tier when leader. Why? Most chip/block damage DM in the game that cant be Countered (block E). Instant KO for instant chars with low hp, especially incoming chars. LDM (when done properly) in almost any instances = 95-100% damage, if not, it will end in Ghost DM, which is confirmed KO as mentioned.

Unblockable (first bit you can block) LDM combo (Prepared Jump B Down B), what kind I say? Sure you can block the starting bit, and Counter E. But on incoming char. You have no chance blocking...

Fear of being LDM-comboed to death from just a Down A = very huge mind game advantage. The opponent can have full bar and you can have 10%. All it takes is 1 down A to hit....Sure the difficulty level is there, and many chances for stuff up (since it's chain dependant). Once you master it, it's pretty much GG for the opponent.

I believe many Duolon (pro) users would agree with me =)

[Perfect Stranger]

The thing with tier lists is that (I think) true experts at any game will always have a different opinion that the generally accepted tier rankings. Things begin to look different when you account for the fact that the experts will be able and willing to put in any amount of effort needed to master some particular difficult, nasty little trick that utterly blows away anything else possible in the game. The best example I have right now to describe this is Roll Cancelling in CvS2. With it, A-groove Blanka is an absolute beast. Without it, he's just really good.

So while yes, LDM Duolon might be insanely overpowered, the average player is going to be looking at Duolon and thinking "Hmm, low damage, pokes are quite good but Gato's looking so much better...".

Another thing I want to mention is this: Has anyone won large tournaments (or just placed really highly) with Duolon as leader? I know frionel (spelling?) went to SBO with his Duolon, K' and... was it Shen? team, but SBO was when the game was still in its infancy, and when the time release characters weren't allowed to be played. If the answer to "Has anyone won tournaments with Duolon leader?" is a no, however, then that's pretty strong evidence to show that Duolon leader might not be that high tier - after all, a *lot* of top players in the game use Kula and Gato to win tournaments, right? That should show that even at the highest level of play people think they give the best chances of winning, i.e. are higher tiers.

[Derrace]

The thing with tier lists is that (I think) true experts at any game will always have a different opinion that the generally accepted tier rankings. Things begin to look different when you account for the fact that the experts will be able and willing to put in any amount of effort needed to master some particular difficult, nasty little trick that utterly blows away anything else possible in the game. The best example I have right now to describe this is Roll Cancelling in CvS2. With it, A-groove Blanka is an absolute beast. Without it, he's just really good.

So while yes, LDM Duolon might be insanely overpowered, the average player is going to be looking at Duolon and thinking "Hmm, low damage, pokes are quite good but Gato's looking so much better...".

Another thing I want to mention is this: Has anyone won large tournaments (or just placed really highly) with Duolon as leader? I know frionel (spelling?) went to SBO with his Duolon, K' and... was it Shen? team, but SBO was when the game was still in its infancy, and when the time release characters weren't allowed to be played. If the answer to "Has anyone won tournaments with Duolon leader?" is a no, however, then that's pretty strong evidence to show that Duolon leader might not be that high tier - after all, a *lot* of top players in the game use Kula and Gato to win tournaments, right? That should show that even at the highest level of play people think they give the best chances of winning, i.e. are higher tiers.

yah, it's true no one won any major tourney with Duolon as leader, that's because of the heavy command input required of the player when they use DL's LDM. But we should also note this: More chance to stuff up doesnt neccesary equate to crap LDM. There arent that many DL users because tourney players tend to go with the flow. high Damage with easy inputs and high priority. Think of it this way, Kula/Gato/Duck/any char Vs Duolon, if both players are down to 1 char each, both with 5 stocks and 2 skill bars, it's hard to say who would win. Chances of one of DL's down attacks hitting is very very high. U can have tick health for all I care, 1 down A, and it's GG. Now, surely that is worth more than a C tier.

sure there are hard combos to master, it just requires training, once perfected, it's very very nasty. Flashback SF3 Comp: Who would have thought that Daigo's Ken would parry every hit of Chunli's Kick Special? Hard to do, yes, impossible? no way.

[J]-[UN]

Emmm...lack of a reliable anti air, dodgy priority and low damage without the LDM means he wouldn't be anywhere above B....With the LDM, I think A at best.

There are plenty of ways the top tier characters (and many others) can keep him zoned away.....if say ; the opponent is a shameless bitch who plays as though if he loses the round he won't have money to take the bus home or something; he can just keep doing vertical or jump back attacks using D/E.
If he has meter advantage, he can play it even more safe, if he has life advantage as well......

Also duolon needs to be decently close to the opponent to set up his LDM from a dwn A....most experienced opponents will make sure he gets no where in range (and they keep an eye out for his teleport as well).

I say all of the above from experience >:P Hell sometimes I'm forced to resort to a random dwnC, cancel to LDM hyper hop B in the last few seconds or so and pray something gets in (cancelling to LDM from that far range makes counter-Es whiff) :/

[Empyrian]

The highest DL can go even as leader is really B. DL and Adel are pretty similar in this aspect as having a great LDM boosts the ranking of an otherwise not so spectacular character.

Despite the potential lethalness TOD ability of DL's LDM, the user himself has admitted that it requires heavy command inputs on the part of the user. Extensive practice may/should remedy this and reduce the margin of error to the minimum, consistentency issues notwithstanding, it is really projected damage vs guaranteed damage. Unless one can say that fatigue is not a factor and that both players can unleash their maximum abilities every single match. However, even with that condition active, I am still rooting for Gato/Kula/Oswald leader than DL leader anytime of the day.

Think of it this way then, in a last character scenario, 5 stocks and 2 skills, Kula/Gato/Oswald/Adel VS DL. It is not very hard to predict who will win. Odds will definitely go to the above mentioned 4 rather than DL if people are interested in betting. I stress that I am not saying DL will lose automatically. Chances of the S tiers (Adel isn't S tier but he has a S tier LDM.) landing a light/heavy attack to LDM is as high if not higher than DL. In fact, the S tiers have more avenues and methods to land than DL.

This is really situational and restrictive. Malin is pretty S tier to me if she is leader in this case. Should we add her to the S tier list if one fine day, a Malin user starts posting in this thread? Who needs an infinite when you really should go for that one time counter hit damage? XD

Jhun is right in saying that DL can be shut down effectively way more easily than other S or A tiers.

From experience, even though I got hit by the LDM of doom a bit too much to my liking, I always considered it a gimmicky aspect in gameplay. Mighty, yes, match turner, yes to that too, but ultimately in the long run, be practical. S tiers are not S tiers for nothing. They do have better winning odds in the end.

If one has to unilaterally push DL up to S/A tier when leader due to what you have said, then Ash should also be at the same rank if not even higher because of this too. Ash's infinite is even simpler to land and it is unescapable once unleashed. In addition, Ash if compared to DL has less mismatches and is more rounded. Better character in general + comparable level of LDM threat = SS tier?

I have been playing XI for nearly a year now and I only do see that few people use DL as leader. Even if I include my online sources, forums, vs vids, the numbers do not go up significantly. I can safely conclude the general consensus across the globe is, "There are more effective leaders than DL in this game."

Perhaps the most glaring fundamental flaw is this, none of the A tiers have overpowered LDMs. They are mostly either excellent QS starters/enders, high damage or very good as an individual character. i.e their gameplay do not revolve around the utilising of their LDMs.

Lastly, do not compare Daigo with ordinary people. Besides, I don't think Daigo can reproduce that every single time on demand.

yah, it's true no one won any major tourney with Duolon as leader, that's because of the heavy command input required of the player when they use DL's LDM. But we should also note this: More chance to stuff up doesnt neccesary equate to crap LDM. There arent that many DL users because tourney players tend to go with the flow. high Damage with easy inputs and high priority. Think of it this way, Kula/Gato/Duck/any char Vs Duolon, if both players are down to 1 char each, both with 5 stocks and 2 skill bars, it's hard to say who would win. Chances of one of DL's down attacks hitting is very very high. U can have tick health for all I care, 1 down A, and it's GG. Now, surely that is worth more than a C tier.

sure there are hard combos to master, it just requires training, once perfected, it's very very nasty. Flashback SF3 Comp: Who would have thought that Daigo's Ken would parry every hit of Chunli's Kick Special? Hard to do, yes, impossible? no way.

[Invincible Duo]

as much as i like DL, hes nowhere near S class unlike in kof2k3.

he just have some really bad matchups and doesnt do enough damage without getting really close to the opponent. highest i'd rank him is B.

[Derrace]

as much as i like DL, hes nowhere near S class unlike in kof2k3.

he just have some really bad matchups and doesnt do enough damage without getting really close to the opponent. highest i'd rank him is B.

Fine, I would agree to a certain extent Duolon as leader isn't as godlike as you guys have countered, not everyone is like Daigo, we are ordinary people.... but what if this little ordinary person can pull off DL's LDM 90+% of the time and most of the opponent's I have encountered are also ordinary people, nothing special about their K,G,O,D, no godlike df A Ozwald Ace combo, no uber kira Grab DM duck, Kula and Gato abusing their priority attacks. Wouldnt the bad matchup be limited to just a few? I am just talking from experience, yah, I am no where near godlike, but I can honestly say that my DL is of standard, I may not beat the best of Kula and Gato users, but I dare say I can match at least 75% of them. and even the best makes mistakes, I still have a chance, some call it wishful thinking, but well, to each own.

let's go with this list as mentioned way way earlier:

S rank: Kula, Gato
A rank: Kyo, Iori, Oswald
B rank: Jenet, Benimaru (+1), K', Kim, Yuri, Kensou, Ralf, Duck, Shen, Momoko
C rank: Maxima, Eiji, Terry (+1), Tizoc, Clark (+1), Duolon

Of this list, the only injustice I see done to DL is having Momo, Kim, K, Iori, Janet, Yuri, Kensou above DL. In fact, I think all of the C tier should be swapped with the B tiers. Alright alright, I dont know how this funky people make up the list, it's obviously bias, and I hope others can see why I am complaining... =)

[Empyrian]

User proficiency of Character X should not be the sole and only indicator of the potential of said character.

For tier list reference, I would suggest taking a look over here instead. This can be found at page 12 of this thread iirc. The list which you had listed is ancient and archaic. However I apologise for that as I should have updated the 1st page.

Japanese.

[SS] Gato, Kula
【S】Oswald, Eiji, Duck (2P), Kim, Clark
【A】Ralf, Duck, Kyo, Maxima, Ryo, Gai
【B】Jenet, K', Ash, Terry, Shen, Jyazu, Silber, Vanessa, Kensou
【C】Malin, Iori, Duolon, Adelheid, Benimaru, Elisabeth
【D】Yuri, Ramon, Mary, Shingo, King, Griffon
【E】Hayate(?), Kasumi, Momoko, Athena, Whip

Korean.

【S】Kula, Gato
【A】Oswald, Eiji, Duck (2P), Kim, Clark, Ralf, Kyo
【B】Jyazu, Maxima, Ryo, Jenet, K', Terry, Adelheid, Vanessa (infinite), Gai, Malin, Silber
【C】Ash, Shen, King, Griffon, Ramon, Benimaru, Iori, Duolon, Yuri, Elisabeth, Mary
【D】Kasumi, Whip, Shingo, Hayate, Athena, Momoko

Taiwanese.

【S】Kula, Gato
【A】Oswald (Leader), Ralf, Clark, Eiji, Kim, Kyo, Duck
【B】Terry, Kensou, Jenet, Adelheid, K', Ryo, Silber, Jyazu
【C】Gai, Malin, King, Ramon, Benimaru, Griffon, Ash, Maxima, Iori, Elisabeth (Leader)
【D】Shen, Duolon, Yuri, Mary, Kasumi, Shingo, Whip
【E】Momoko, Athena, Hayate

The only thing lacking for the 3 lists would be that it does not take into a/c the boost in ranking a character will get if he/she is leader. If that is the case, then I think one should also take a look at the LDM thread over here and treat it as an appendix.