Duo Lon (XI)

[~!T.T!~]

yeah, i could never ever get those LDM variations on a crouching opponent anyway.....any suggestions on what to do if they're crouching?


with clark, try to stay out of range if possible, and don't get hit by those quick jump Ds. DL's stand A is your friend, especially when you realise its godly priority for just a standing weak attack (yes, IMO it's got more priority than oswald's). If you can get on top of him in air battles then that have a better chance as well. basically poke him out of range. stand A/B are great and whenever you can, keep him grounded

[Invincible Duo]

about hitting the LDM on crouching opponents, check the post again

Theres two variations of the palm ldm combo. one starting with activation, crouching c into teleport and the other one done with activation, qcf+a, f+b, teleport.

the qcf+a, f+b into teleport doesnt work on duckin opponents but the crouching c into teleport does.

so to sum it up, the LDM combo that works on crouching opponents.

qcf+a, f+b, hcb+c, acbd, cr. c, b teleport, cr. a, [qcf+a, f+b, hcb+c]xn

repeat the brackets.

vs clark: jumping a beats a lot of things clark does but you must do it early.

[Derrace]

about hitting the LDM on crouching opponents, check the post again

Theres two variations of the palm ldm combo. one starting with activation, crouching c into teleport and the other one done with activation, qcf+a, f+b, teleport.

the qcf+a, f+b into teleport doesnt work on duckin opponents but the crouching c into teleport does.

so to sum it up, the LDM combo that works on crouching opponents.

qcf+a, f+b, hcb+c, acbd, cr. c, b teleport, cr. a, [qcf+a, f+b, hcb+c]xn

repeat the brackets.

vs clark: jumping a beats a lot of things clark does but you must do it early.

you can also do the following on crouched opp:

Qcf A, Fwd B, Hcb C, LDM into
1) Down C, Qcf B, Down A, (Qcf A, Fwd B, Hcb C) x n as mentioned by you.
It is possible to replace the first Down C with Stand C. Same with the Down A after you teleport. Stand C does more damage. Pretty straightforward there..
2) Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B, (Stand C or Down A, Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B) x n. You can change this string into 3) as mentioned later.
3) Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B, Stand C or Down A, (Qcf A, Fwd B Hcb C) x n You can change this back to 2) as well.

you can change the tele combo string into the palm combo string as long as you maintain the first necessary hit require to connect the other string.
palm string requires you to be start the string by backstabbing.

necessary hit to maintain the string
after a tele string, you need to connect the next string with Down A or Stand C
after a palm string, you must connect the next string with a Qcf punch.

in other words you can go, Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B, (Stand C or Down A, Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B) x 2, Down A / Stand C, Qcf A, Fwd B Hcb C, Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B, Stand C/Down A, Qcf A, Fwd B, Hcb C ( I think the LDM wears off here)...

I know palm string does more damage.. Just consider the feasible combos I mentioned for Style Points =)..

There are some cases you would want to change between the string. It's hard to explain...Play around a bit and you would get the idea.. It's all about extra double palm combo when your LDM finishes that makes it worth while to change between strings..

I for one, cannot do a double palm combo once the LDM wears off if I just do the palm string all the way... but I always can end with a double palm with the tele string... but the palm string does more damage, so do the math =)

DUOLON FTW!

[Derrace]

hmm, I think it's possible to have more than 82 hits with 2 power and 1 skill stock...

previously i posted

Jump C crossover, down A, double palm combo, SC LDM, Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B, (Down A, Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B)*, once LDM wears off, perform double palm combo again finishing with Down A x 2, Qcf A x 3.


Something I found out today...

Jump C crossover, down A, double palm combo,

down A, Qcf A, Fwd B, LDM, Jump B, Stand C, Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B, (Down A, Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B)*, once LDM wears off, perform double palm combo again finishing with Down A x 2, Qcf A x 3.

I never got to finish my combo as the opponent died....=( but I think it should be more than 82 since you get extra Qcf A, Fwd B, and illusion Jump Bs, Stand Cs,

This has to be the hardest and tightest combo I ever done with Duolon. All 3 Fwd Bs (2 from the double palm combo and the other the unfinished palm combo) must be delayed to the max.... talk about TIGHT!

Got this idea from watching the command grab into LDM combo vid =)

[AcidicEnema]

Hasn't been posted yet, but Necro Duo's method of comboing the LDM off a command grab also allows for the LDM to be comboed off a d.B like so:

(mid-screen)

d.B> d.A> qcf+A> f+B> LDM> hyper hop B> s.C> qcf+B (switch sides)> d.A> [qcf+A> f+B> hcb+C]*6> Finisher

(enemy corner)
d.B> d.A> qcf+A> f+B> LDM> hyper hop B> s.C> qcf+B> [d.A> qcf+A> f+B> qcf+K]*n> Finisher

2X d.B is also possible at the start of the combo, but increases the chance of the hop B missing...

[Derrace]

Hasn't been posted yet, but Necro Duo's method of comboing the LDM off a command grab also allows for the LDM to be comboed off a d.B like so:

(mid-screen)

d.B> d.A> qcf+A> f+B> LDM> hyper hop B> s.C> qcf+B (switch sides)> d.A> [qcf+A> f+B> hcb+C]*6> Finisher

(enemy corner)
d.B> d.A> qcf+A> f+B> LDM> hyper hop B> s.C> qcf+B> [d.A> qcf+A> f+B> qcf+K]*n> Finisher

2X d.B is also possible at the start of the combo, but increases the chance of the hop B missing...

Hello there, is there any reason why d.A is prefered over s.C during the repeated string? I used to do d.A but every since I realised s.C is also possible, I swapped the As for Cs... more damage don't ya think ;)

also, after the hyper hop B, Stand C, wouldn't Qcf A, Fwd B, Qcf B, be better than just Qcf B? I guess it's the amount of time you have before the LDM wears off.... but do let me know what you guys think.. ta

'ric

[AcidicEnema]

As for the first question, I have no real answer except that using d.A *is* easier (more forgiving timing), and because people are used to it. d.A is also more flexible for spacing, so its less likely to fuck up if started the LDM too far away, etc. Also, for people like me (psychomotor retards), its hard enough to master 1 combo timing, so learning another one (and losing matches along the way) for a fairly marginal increase in damage just isn't worth it.

For the second question, I think s.C>qcf+K is better simply because it gets behind the opponent *even* if he blocks. So 1) even if you screwed up the timing for the hop B, you're in a better position to confuse/pressure the opponent 2) it makes the combo a viable 'guard breaker' even if the opponent had blocked from the very start.

Honestly, I think the future of DL's LDM is not just in connecting it off as many angles as possible (which is always going to be limited in real fights since 1) you live to fear the saving shift and 2) comboing DL's LDM off a QS is more problematic than most LDMs due to spacing issues). IMO the biggest untapped use for it is as a guard breaker, like SFA3 V-isms.

[AcidicEnema]

Re: QSing in for the LDM

IMO

j.C> s.C> LDM> h.hop B> s.C> qcf+K> (Insert combo)

is the better LDM combo if you're QSing. Mainly because the teleport in

j.C> s.C> LDM> qcf+P> f+K> QCF+K> (Insert combo)

will whiff off certain QSs. For e.g., try this combo:

(Duck) j.D> d.A*2> s.B> f+C> QS DL> j.C> s.C> LDM> qcf+P> f+B> QCF+K> d.A

If done at mid-screen, the combo *will end* after the qcf+K. OTOH, the hop B variation will hit and combo fine.

[Invincible Duo]

the reason why i dont do standing c after the teleport in his LDM is because it doesnt combo from cr. c into teleport.

qcf+a, f+b, qcf+b into standing c combos tho.

when i first came up with the palm ldm i did using cr. c into teleport into cr. a, but nowadays when i do it, i ususally do qcf+a, f+b, qcf+b into cr. a unless opponent is crouching.

i dont find it too bad if the opponent have 2 bars to save shift out of your ldm.

its like save shifting out of kula/oswalds b&b. if you have 2 meters and you landed a hit, chances are the opponent will save shift out before the LDM actually hits.

its basically the same concept. if you are duo lon and you get the palm combo to connect but opponent has two save shift meter, just finish the combo with cr.a, qcf+p x3. i personally qs into gato for his kick super after the qcf+px3 hits.

[AcidicEnema]

"i dont find it too bad if the opponent have 2 bars to save shift out of your ldm.

its like save shifting out of kula/oswalds b&b. if you have 2 meters and you landed a hit, chances are the opponent will save shift out before the LDM actually hits.

its basically the same concept. if you are duo lon and you get the palm combo to connect but opponent has two save shift meter, just finish the combo with cr.a, qcf+p x3. i personally qs into gato for his kick super after"

Its different for at least 2 reasons

1. As TT pointed out in the LDM thread- the opponent can saving shift during anytime that DL is doing his LDM combo. So even if you started the combo while the opponent only has, say 1.5 skill stocks, the opponent will at least be able to SS and cut a portion of your LDM damage. Worst still, because you're comboing, the opponent will probably get a 'counter' on his SS and can combo after it.

2. Assuming that DL has the same probability of landing a combo that Kula and Oswald have, K and O clearly have an advantage when it comes to avoiding Saving shifts. I play against people who saving shift *only* when they see the LDM activate, not when the palm connects. So basically, this means that they have 2 skill stocks, my DL effectively *loses* the damage potential of his LDM. Yes, you can do a less damaging QS combo if they have skill stocks, but then that effectively nullifies the point of having a leader in the first place, doesn't it? Against K and O, you have to waste 2 skill stocks, before they even launch you, and then they can go to work on your incoming character (and still have their skill stocks to use).

Still not sure if I'm clear, but it seems like common sense to me- if you're not going to do the LDM if the opponent has 2 skill stocks, then the LDM has already ceased to become a factor. With DL, opponent gets to choose when to SS and waste your stocks, whereas with KO; the oppoenant has no choice but to SS every single combo opening or risk getting hit by an un-SS-able LDM.

[Invincible Duo]

"i dont find it too bad if the opponent have 2 bars to save shift out of your ldm.

its like save shifting out of kula/oswalds b&b. if you have 2 meters and you landed a hit, chances are the opponent will save shift out before the LDM actually hits.

its basically the same concept. if you are duo lon and you get the palm combo to connect but opponent has two save shift meter, just finish the combo with cr.a, qcf+p x3. i personally qs into gato for his kick super after"

Its different for at least 2 reasons

1. As TT pointed out in the LDM thread- the opponent can saving shift during anytime that DL is doing his LDM combo. So even if you started the combo while the opponent only has, say 1.5 skill stocks, the opponent will at least be able to SS and cut a portion of your LDM damage. Worst still, because you're comboing, the opponent will probably get a 'counter' on his SS and can combo after it.

2. Assuming that DL has the same probability of landing a combo that Kula and Oswald have, K and O clearly have an advantage when it comes to avoiding Saving shifts. I play against people who saving shift *only* when they see the LDM activate, not when the palm connects. So basically, this means that they have 2 skill stocks, my DL effectively *loses* the damage potential of his LDM. Yes, you can do a less damaging QS combo if they have skill stocks, but then that effectively nullifies the point of having a leader in the first place, doesn't it? Against K and O, you have to waste 2 skill stocks, before they even launch you, and then they can go to work on your incoming character (and still have their skill stocks to use).

Still not sure if I'm clear, but it seems like common sense to me- if you're not going to do the LDM if the opponent has 2 skill stocks, then the LDM has already ceased to become a factor. With DL, opponent gets to choose when to SS and waste your stocks, whereas with KO; the oppoenant has no choice but to SS every single combo opening or risk getting hit by an un-SS-able LDM.

if you started the LDM combo when the opponent has 1.5 skill bar, chances are you'll finish the LDM combo before their bar fills up and being able to SS.

If they chose not to SS when the palm hits, thats fine since the followups after the palm hurts a lot and I dont use the LDM when they have two skill bars since anyone that plays this game knows they can SS out of his LDM. Its still a win win situation. they can either eat the damage off my palm combos or they can SS out, which will leave them with no skill bars and gives me 15 seconds to land the LDM before their skill bar refills again.

the big trade off of being SSable is the damage. his LDM does far more damage than any other ldm in the game, which is why some people uses him as leader.

[~!T.T!~]

actually, i definetly agree with AE in the sense that when it comes to dealing with the opponent's saving shifts, oswald and kula dont have to think of it as much as a factor since their B&B launches at some point, so after a certain point the SS is useless. the fact that you're using his non-leader followups if they have skill stocks does, as AE said previously, somewhat defeat the purpose of having him as a leader



and it you start the combo when the opponent has 1.5 skill stocks, they will earn 2 by the time you're 3/4 through it. worse still, if they have 1.75 skill stocks or so, they'll most probably gain their full 2 stocks by about the 4th-6th rep of the combo[/b]

[Derrace]

"i dont find it too bad if the opponent have 2 bars to save shift out of your ldm.

its like save shifting out of kula/oswalds b&b. if you have 2 meters and you landed a hit, chances are the opponent will save shift out before the LDM actually hits.

its basically the same concept. if you are duo lon and you get the palm combo to connect but opponent has two save shift meter, just finish the combo with cr.a, qcf+p x3. i personally qs into gato for his kick super after"

Its different for at least 2 reasons

1. As TT pointed out in the LDM thread- the opponent can saving shift during anytime that DL is doing his LDM combo. So even if you started the combo while the opponent only has, say 1.5 skill stocks, the opponent will at least be able to SS and cut a portion of your LDM damage. Worst still, because you're comboing, the opponent will probably get a 'counter' on his SS and can combo after it.

2. Assuming that DL has the same probability of landing a combo that Kula and Oswald have, K and O clearly have an advantage when it comes to avoiding Saving shifts. I play against people who saving shift *only* when they see the LDM activate, not when the palm connects. So basically, this means that they have 2 skill stocks, my DL effectively *loses* the damage potential of his LDM. Yes, you can do a less damaging QS combo if they have skill stocks, but then that effectively nullifies the point of having a leader in the first place, doesn't it? Against K and O, you have to waste 2 skill stocks, before they even launch you, and then they can go to work on your incoming character (and still have their skill stocks to use).

Still not sure if I'm clear, but it seems like common sense to me- if you're not going to do the LDM if the opponent has 2 skill stocks, then the LDM has already ceased to become a factor. With DL, opponent gets to choose when to SS and waste your stocks, whereas with KO; the oppoenant has no choice but to SS every single combo opening or risk getting hit by an un-SS-able LDM.

hmm...

Firstly, as mentioned by so many duolon pros =), being SS out of LDm sucks.. you lose 2 Power + 1 Skill stock. K/Oswalds doesnt even need to waste any... but I disagree on the following....

"Yes, you can do a less damaging QS combo if they have skill stocks, but then that effectively nullifies the point of having a leader in the first place, doesn't it?"

very true, but at least it's one skill stock for his two skill stocks.. which leads to:

"Against K and O, you have to waste 2 skill stocks, before they even launch you, and then they can go to work on your incoming character (and still have their skill stocks to use)."

Your duolon should get a skill stock faster then the opponent considering he just used it. Better still, if both of you started with 2, you would still have 1 to SC to.

Sure the opponent might not choose to SS despite you doing a QS combo, but depending on what ur incoming QS char is, I can assure you the wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of say, auto pilot Oswald's ace combo (after palm, Down A x 2 Qcf A x 2).

If you have too many stocks, then just SC into ghost DM (or Down A, Qcf A, Fwd B SC into Fireball DM after palm).


As for this bit:

"if you started the LDM combo when the opponent has 1.5 skill bar, chances are you'll finish the LDM combo before their bar fills up and being able to SS.

If they chose not to SS when the palm hits, thats fine since the followups after the palm hurts a lot and I dont use the LDM when they have two skill bars since anyone that plays this game knows they can SS out of his LDM. Its still a win win situation. they can either eat the damage off my palm combos or they can SS out, which will leave them with no skill bars and gives me 15 seconds to land the LDM before their skill bar refills again.

the big trade off of being SSable is the damage. his LDM does far more damage than any other ldm in the game, which is why some people uses him as leader."

I totally agree with this. It's not so much of the opponent being able to SS in when the 2 SS builds.. but the following:

1) LDM combo finishing before SS as mentioned.
2) LDM combo killing off the char ( 1/2 to 3/4 hp easily)
3) Heck, I am somewhere in the middle of the combo, dealt perhaps 40%-75% of what I could potentially do. Opponent is somewhat dead. (say 1/3 - 1/4 hp). By all I means, I would want my opponent to SS. That's 2 skill stocks wasted. It's a well worth trade off, unless you get SS into counter in juggle-anywhere LDM (Ozzie, Hayate,etc). You might get hit, but your shadow might hit him as well... It's extremely worth it if the opp being combo-ed is his/her leader..

[Invincible Duo]

for me, I treat duo lons LDM like a QS combo.

like most SS combos, it can get QSed out but the damage potential on it is great.

Like derrick said, if the opponent SS out of it when i'm 3/4 done, its actually a good thing. they wasted 2 skill bars and took at least 75% damage.

one thing i noticed with the skill bars is it builds faster if you attack so chances are the opponent will not get their 1.5 skill bars filled to 2 when i do my LDM combo on them.

[~!T.T!~]

i suppose in tight matches doing 75% is better than doing 25% or even 50%, so it also depends on the situation and the person you're fighting

but yeah, like derrick said, QS to oswald ace combo is a lot more reliable. a month or so ago, i'd always, always put DL before oswald, even if he's leader. this way, when you get whatever opening, at least you'll be able to go for the ace combo and if they use the SS, thats 2 SS versus your 1 used up, making way for an LDM combo