Kyo (XI)

[Iie-Kyo]

The string doesn't combo. The opp can block between the qcf+A and the hcb+K, which is just plain stupid.

Hrm, from what I can see, it looks like this:

qcf + A, the guy gets hit.

qcf + A, the guy gets launched up - sets up for a juggle.

hcb + K is his old HCB + B <-- did they lag this so badly that this thing just plain ol whiffs, period? Does it take a long time to come out? Does Kyo hop during the hcb + K too high? Does this leave you wide open because the thing will just whiff and they'll recovery roll out of it? If it combos, does it combo outside the corner? What about in the corner? What's going on here?

Of course, I COMPLETELY forgot to test this when I was at the arcade yesterday. I was having too much fun playing Griffon and doing random elbow drops from the air with random command grabs and his BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG FARU.

[PenPen]

I see it like this, after the first qcf+A, you do hcb+K (or D...forgot), which connects and is a pretty safe move when it's blocked, instead of another qcf+A, P or K. K actually might miss out some crouchers even though it is safer when blocked high.
The qcf+A, qcf+A, hcb+B chain does not link, if I recall you can't do stuff like qcf+D,D into that specific chain because the hcb+B doesn't come out really quickly. The hcb+B move is basically a surprise move. It does have full body invincibility when he's doing the hop if I recall. Anyhow, some people will try and do something at the second qcf+A of the Aragami chain, and if you do hcb+B it'll go through Kyo, and they go flying up like wow. I'm not sure if it can work like this though.
You do qcf+A, qcf+A
Opponent tries to guard cancel E you
You do hcb+B when they're E-ing you, thus the E misses you, and you launch them like wow

[Shirakani]

qcf+A to hcb+D is more or less the same as qcf+A qcf+A, except the distance is different (shorter). Doing qcf+A qcf+A then hcb+B, to me, is kinda like delaying Iori's Aoihana (qcb+P). Pull the move slowly, and change your timings, so if the first two hits are guarded, and they think you won't do anything else and try to counterattack, the Hikigane will knock em up for a juggle.

If the Shinken hits, then the Kamikura WON'T miss! That seems to be how Dreamcancels are in terms of property, especially since this is the ONLY possible DC for Kyo, it seems extremely 'canned'. If the former hits, the latter is handed to you on a silver platter.

DC's in general seem to be extremely canned, has anyone here actually ever MISSED a DC? Coz I haven't...someone tell me how to. It really does seem that , at least in Kyo's case, if the Shinken hits, the opponent is forcibly dragged down into the Kamikura grab, no escape.

[AcidicEnema]

AFAIK Iie-Kyo is right about the Dream Cancel missing for Kyo. There is a max range allowed for Kyo to 'pull' the opponent in during the Shinken> Kamikura (Ashes of a God, gotta love Japaese move names :grin: ) Dream Cancel. So yeah, its very possible to whiff outside the corner.

[Empyrian]

DC's in general seem to be extremely canned, has anyone here actually ever MISSED a DC? Coz I haven't...someone tell me how to. It really does seem that , at least in Kyo's case, if the Shinken hits, the opponent is forcibly dragged down into the Kamikura grab, no escape.

Read your own sig. It is very possible to whiff a DC. It depends on the characters being used actually. However it is safe to assume that out of 10 DCs, only the odd one or 2 will whiff for you. XD

In general, if your character's DC is off a ranbu type move, DCing at the correct hits will almost guarantee success.

Kula and Gato can whiff their DCs for eg. Perhaps that is the price to pay for godhood, huh? XD

[Tsubasa]

If the Shinken hits, then the Kamikura WON'T miss! That seems to be how Dreamcancels are in terms of property, especially since this is the ONLY possible DC for Kyo, it seems extremely 'canned'. If the former hits, the latter is handed to you on a silver platter.

DC's in general seem to be extremely canned, has anyone here actually ever MISSED a DC? Coz I haven't...someone tell me how to. It really does seem that , at least in Kyo's case, if the Shinken hits, the opponent is forcibly dragged down into the Kamikura grab, no escape.

I've missed a number of DCs. I don't happen to play Kyo, so I don't know how his goes specifically, but I play Jenet as my leader sometimes and her LDM shifts to a grab when DCed. For her, the LDM will whiff if the opponent is too far away and many times if you catch the opponent out of the air. For comparison sake, she only has a single DC too.

[Iie-Kyo]

Well, she doesn't need more than one DC. She's already damn good without it.

But yeah, Shirakani, it's not guaranteed for a DC to hit. Only some characters have a "guaranteed" followup DC. Oswald's (duh), Iori's from his Maiden Masher, Kasumi from her new command grab super, etc. In other words, it's character specific. Could it be? SNKP's trying to make this game... varied?

[Shirakani]

Dunno...Personally i've never missed a DC...I must be lucky...

[Derrace]

Dunno...Personally i've never missed a DC...I must be lucky...

diito =)

hmm, maybe you guys are executing it a bit too slow?

[Iie-Kyo]

If you want to see the Air Conditioner of the God (Kamikura ) miss, do A version Shinken outside of the corner after a std C/D 75 Shiki Kai. Make sure you delay the second hit of the 75 Shiki Kai so you land fast enough to do this. As soon as you land, input the motion for the A version Shinken. As you see the guy falling, try to hit them with the edge of the Shinken - on the frame where the Shinken's hitbox is no longer present. Additionally make sure your opponent is above Kyo's head height when you do this. Basically, if it looks like you're BARELY hitting with the Shinken (makes you look kinda scrubby too in the process ) that means you're doing it correctly.

Then do the DC into Kamikura. Watch it whiff.

[Iie-Kyo]

Whoa, Kyo's not being talked about. Must remedy it.

Is it just me or is Kyo now a hit confirm whore?

Stuff he can hit confirm off of:

- dwn A x 2, df + D
- dwn B, dwn A, df + D
- std C, f + B
- std C, 75 Shiki Kai

In the older KoFs, he had only option 2, which could not be comboed off of, and option 4, which potentially made him lose momentum if done outside the corner. He can now shutdown roll whores who try to roll past Kyo by simply tapping the A button a few times into his df + D (1 hit) into his Dokugami chain. I've never had this option before. I often tried to throw opponents who tried to roll past me back into the corner, but there was a slight chance that they'd be able to get out.

Not only that, you can hit confirm the Shinken (since there's that omgwtf freeze after it hits) into the Kamikura, which makes it loleasy to make something that does pretty good damage this year into omgwtfow.

And, much like his rival Iori, he's now a clutch combo whore too, as Shirakani and I discussed in the previous pages.

- dwn B, dwn A, df + D into either Shinken or A Aragami
- std C, df + D into Yami Barai or A Aragami
- std C , 75 Shiki Kai (a hit confirm and a clutch combo in one, wtf; don't forget it launches so they can't Saving Shift out)

The first two do roughly the same amount of damage as Iori's damage-scaled-to-hell B&B, if that tells you anything.

Whoever was asking about doing his old classic B&B after the 75 Shiki Kai, there's I think two ways to do it. std C, do his 75 Shiki Kai, do the second hit extremely late and just do the Orochinagi or do it 2k1-2k3 style - 75 Shiki Kai, do the D whenever, then when you do the Orochinagi, hold the button and let go immediately after the screen turns black. Too bad you can't followup with anything though.

Oh yeah, and I see why his B Hikigane after the first two hits of the Aragami chain misses, the second hit of the chain doesn't pop the guy up high enough and the followup B Hikigane has omgwtf startup and lag, causing it to not juggle at all. Oh well.

Kyo's old throw the guy into the corner so they wake up the wrong way and crossup the shit out of them trick still works. See game41 vids with Kyo, Mary, Barnessar player for more details.

I'm still struggling with the game's omgwtf screen length though. Makes turtlers much more annoying to crush when you have to run 25% longer to get to them.

Anyway, I'm just wondering, what are your corner options this year with Kyo? We all know he's the crowning definition of the cornerfucking character, so I want some insight into how this is done, especially with the nature of the way Kyo is in XI.

So far this is what I do when I'm on the offensive:

- hop B then...
-> Wait, tick throw into corner crossover setup
-> Dwn B, wait, walk forward, tick throw into corner crossover setup.
-> std C, then do a VERY slow 75 Shiki Kai. If I see the opponent twitch after the second 75 Shiki Kai, do another std C agen into whatever
-> Empty jump, then low combo, Kamikura (if leader) or empty tick throw
-> Run at them after the hop B then Kamikura (very dangerous)
-> be like a noob frogger and hop in with B repeatedly

-> backstep hop back (bk, bk) to a little less than a character's step away...
--> then do A version Shinken. If they roll, they eat Shinken, if they jump, I let the Shinken go early and run after them. If they keep blocking, I try to out-twitch the Shinken, since they're being pressured to evade it. If they manage to roll out, as soon as I see the roll I let the Shinken go so I recover just in time to stuff their punishment attempt. Sometimes I don't even hold the Shinken at this distance, since if you make them block the edge of the Shinken it's 100% safe.
--> harass with far Bs, mixup with low Ds into Yami Barai, or do Yami Barai by itself.
--> jump agen at them after the backstep hop to reset pressure game.
--> just wait since they're under pressure to get out of the corner. This tends to cause people to do stupid things like attempting to roll forward AT Kyo right into Kyo's fist.
--> B R.E.D. Kick to stop their attempt at jumping out of the corner

Anything else I'm missing? Additionally, does any of Kyo's Aragami chains have a move similar to his old Kototsuki followup that "follows" the enemy if they attempt to get smart and roll after the first hit of the Aragami?

[Shirakani]

Nah, you pretty much summed it up. This year's Kyo, i've said before, will arguably be S tier if he wasn't subjected to damage scaling. That's the ONLY reason he's not S tier.

What i find myself doing often is when at range, i'm playing Kusanagi style. Use the projectile to zone, i don't expect it to HIT of course, pfft, it's used to force a reaction. I've had people roll forward on it, right into a simply tappy combo (cB cA df+D Dokugami chain) that does major ouch quite often.

The Aragami chains i find myself using once i've actually cornered someone. I have a habit of delaying and 'hit confirming' if that's what you mean. ie, throw an attack, see what happens, THEN do a followup. Due to the increased options on the high low game this year, fully guarding is very very seldom done. Most of the time my target escapes by tagging out. If they try to roll...tappy combo or Kamikura, pick one. If they're out of skill stocks and can't tag, well...Here's where the 'Clark threat' comes in. I've said it many times, this is the sole reason why the Kamikura > Mu Shiki, it gives Kyo an attack angle he should not have at all. Not to mention that it IS a Clark grab in the fact it's one frame, and has the same crazy properties as Clark's SAB DM.

HOW do i corner? hop B, hop B, jump d+C, either i get a crossover, or it's guarded and still pushes back...Throw the odd projectile here and there to wtf up their timing, or the odd Aragami here and there. It pretty much speaks for itself, this version of Kyo is the easiest ver ever to hammer someone into a corner, if you're any good at Kyo you simply have no excuse for not being able to corner someone.

...Unless of course you're in a high level match and trying to corner Gato or Kula...I have trouble cornering Kula but i think that's pretty much a given.

Oh, the B Hikigane does have it's uses as a mid screen confirm or push, depending on what your opponent does. Some people actually try to counter if they think you're not going to follow up with the Aragami. If they do that, do the Hikigane, it may have startup but it also has OMGWTF invincibility to a degree, it WILL send em flying up. Then follow with whatever you like.

EDIT: oh yeah, forgot to mention. Kusanagi will supposedly be added to the ps2 ver of XI. Is it just me, or is that TOTALLY utterly moot this year? Past KOF's ok, i can see the merit of having a 'zoner' Kyo, but not this year...Unless they TOTALLY rework him, i don't see a point coz XI Kyo has everything and more.

[~!T.T!~]

this incarnation of kyo could never be top tier material, leader or not, with or without damage scaling. With that said, however, i do think he's 5th in the game overall. key thing here is safety. anything that makes sense to end blocked strings with is safe. I mean, he's almost as brainless as ngbc kyo......

[Iie-Kyo]

this incarnation of kyo could never be top tier material, leader or not, with or without damage scaling. With that said, however, i do think he's 5th in the game overall. key thing here is safety. anything that makes sense to end blocked strings with is safe. I mean, he's almost as brainless as ngbc kyo......

Heh, I had yet another 2-page post in response to this, but I'll just put it at this. The only person out of the Unholy Three that requires brains to play IMO is Oswald, the other two are very one dimensional characters. Kyo IMO requires a bit more forward thinking than the two do, and without damage scaling and with his leader, I think he's a solid 4th - 5th place, with the occasion of hitting 3rd if it turns into a 1v1 match with both Oswald and Kyo with full stocks. But he is the crowning definition of an A tier character.

He has everything he needs to beat you down with and nothing more. Compared to the Unholy Three, it's hard to scream omgwtf borken in regards to this incarnation of Kyo because this is simply a Kyo with all the right options. No ghey LDM that uses messed up juggle properties to be "good", no ridiculously easy to crossup with button that has omgwtf hitstun (yes, I'm aware Kyo's B is easy to crossup with, but it doesn't have a HUGE hitbox like a certain character's C nor does it do a C's worth of hitstun) into an omgwtf easy to do dwn b dwn a combo that can hit from a character's length, no ultra-high priority uppercuts or ridiculously safe moves (whiff an LDM and they can't hit you, WTF?), no ultra high speed moves with 0-2 frame startup other than the Kamikura, which costs 2 stocks and can be escaped since it's a grab, etc.

Now NGBC Kyo on the other hand, I will agree with you is brainless... that's the Gato-ized version of Kyo, bar none. Even that version of Kyo scares me.

Shirakani:

Funny thing about playing him like Kusanagi, you can also play the bait-the-jump/roll game with him when you go zoner mode. Something feels ass-backwards about going Shotokan on someone for the hell of it, but the option is there. Now if that Oniyaki only had autoguard...

Oh, about the corner thing - what I meant to say is what do you do once you have them cornered. I'm trying to think of as many things possible to do to fux0r the guy up, and of course it's pretty obvious as to how weird of an attack angle his Kamikura gives. I just didn't see it as much of a big deal in 2001 where previously you could jump out of it on reaction if you see it startup. Now if he gets you with it and you're not doing anything that has godly priority or invincibility, he WILL get you, but I find him such a solid character that putting him as a leader kinda sucks cos I usually have to play him last and use him "smart" instead of being a throwaway character with nothing to lose in the first slot.

I enjoy playing him more as part of the normal team, but I may take the suggestion to putting Kyo as leader and placing him first, since Kyo's very good at controlling the match's momentum ASAP (provided he can cornerfuck one of the KGOs, since the GTFO the corner options require stock or in Kula's case, a risky as fuck dp + C or DM.

In regards to the B Hikigane, I'm speaking more of the B Hikigane that follows from doing the the Hikigane after the *second* followup of the Aragami, where it turns into the little hop. I find it really hard to hit with (or even trick an opponent into getting hit by it) because of its lag, but I'm guessing I just need to vary my Aragami strings more so it's a nice thing to bs out of nowhere when the time comes.

Btw, the computer taught me how awesome the priority on Kyo's crouch C is now. I've seen it stuff the Unholy Three's buttons, and the computer Kyo was even able to stop my Kyo's hop B with it. O_o

[AcidicEnema]

Ah yes, the magic of crouch C.

Without it, Duck rapes Kyo. With it, the match is pretty fair.