Your theories for rebalances in PS2 XI?

[Iie-Kyo]

PS2 XI is going to have an Arranged mode, with supposed game rebalances or whatnot...

Seeing how SNKP usually tends to nerf the top tiers from their arcade game by either doing it in their PS2 port or the next incarnation of arcade KoF, it will be safe to say that the following characters will be rebalanced. I will attempt to list my speculated changes to these characters by Command Attacks, Normals, Special Moves, and then DMs/LDMs.

Kula
Command Attacks - No changes.

Normals -
* Slow animation speed of jump and hop C.
* Increase startup of std C. They got rid of Terry's std C for the reason, and K's one isn't even as good anymore.

Specials -
* + C reduced to 2k2 priority.
* Opponent allowed to recovery roll after + C.
* To prevent Kula from being fucked over after an opponent gets hit by + C, make the + C knock opponent up higher if it connects.
* + K gets increased recovery.
* + P gets increased recovery but is still comboable.

DMs/LDMs -
* DMs are fine. LDM freeze execution should get HUGE damage scale if used in a combo. Kula should also be vulnerable to hits at the end.

Oswald
Command Attacks - Fix unblockable, .

Normals -
* Air C's hitbox needs to be reduced both vertically and horizontally.
* Speed up std CD but make its range crappier.
* Reduce range and increase lag after far A and crouch A.

Specials -
* Reduce dmg for his 40% special. Should do 75% of its current amount.

DMs/LDMs -
* x 2 + P DM should be cappable near its startup if done against a meaty attack.
* LDM needs to have its startup speed reduced. Should suffer a bigger damage scale like other LDMs do if they're comboed.

Gato
Actually, the main thing I hope they do with this ghey bish is for them to revert him back to his 2k3 speed. He was still very strong and capabl back then - his extra speed and priority increase in XI was unnecessary.

Command Attacks -
* Increase startup of f + B.
* Increase lag after f + A.

Normals -
* Reduce priority of air D.
* Increase startup of air B.
* Increase lag after B and std B.
* Increase startup for std C and increase lag for close D.
* Increase startup for D.

Specials -
* Hop back "fireball" gives less (MUCH LESS) stock.
* Remove ability to do normal from Hop teleport.

DMs/LDMs -
* x 2 + K should have less startup invincibility.
* x 2 + P should NOT be a zero-risk one frame DM that offers a free hit if it trades.
* LDM should be affected more by damage scaling and have its guard crushing properties removed.

Anyone have any suggestions for these guys? What are your speculations for nerfings/improvements for everyone else?

[SonicTempest]

Just to add, from the video, it seems Duck's Break Spiral range has been increased in the Arrange mode gameplay, so it seems likely that other characters will receive rebalances as well.

[Shirakani]

IMO the best thing to do to the top 3 are simply to subject them as harshly as Kyo's DC'd LDM is to the scaling. Especially Oswald, his Joker LDM needs to be scaled the same way the Kamikura is.

Gato...yeh, 2k3 ver is fine. Kula i actually don't mind as is right now, just tweak the damage on her +C slightly and scale the hell out of the Freeze Execution.

It could also be tho that the scaling won't be to NERF the top chars, but to BUFF the rest. So there could be a chance that the top 3 won't be touched much and everyone ELSE gets an increase.

I wonder if Kyo would be used more as leader if the Kamikura wasn't subject to scaling at all....hm...

Oh, and...for the love of god, they'd better bring Iori out of 'beta test' mode and fix him completely. Normals should NOT do more damage than specials --;

[-Defuser-]

Oh, and...for the love of god, they'd better bring Iori out of 'beta test' mode and fix him completely. Normals should NOT do more damage than specials --;

there's no need for it.Just change the damage scaling and that could kicked him into the A tier.They should really butcher Ralf attack damage and tone down that outrageous autoguard in his Galactica Phantom.i hope they beef up K' in his attacks and priorities,same goes to Kensou..

[Tel]

I'm kinda surprised SNKP is even attempting to balance the game when they're putting in all those edit characters. Since tiers aren't gonna matter for the PS2 version, it seems contradictory to try to balance the game while bringing in the NGBC characters. I mean, it's one thing if they brought in 2k3 characters like Joe, Andy and Billy. But NGBC is a different game altogether, and it seems quite pointless to try and revise the game for the console.

I'm interested in seeing how SNKP balances the XI characters. In truth, they do a pretty poor job at balancing compared with the old SNK. One character becomes overpowered, and they tend to nerf the heck out of them instead of making minor tweaks.

[Shirakani]

I don't know why ppl say 'tiers don't matter' for the ps2 ver when it's the version that a LARGE majority will be playing, therefore it will be the 'base' for them, and secondly...it will also be competitively played ONLINE in japan.

I think with all those ppl playing, it matters. Not everyone has an arcade near them with an XI machine, especially in the west. So even moreso for western gamers who import this, or torrent, or whatever, this will be the 'grounding' version..

So hell yeah, it matters. You can think it does not, but SNKP obviously do, else they wouldn't bother w/ rebalances. KOF2k and 2k1 didn't get a rebalance, 2k2 didn't either.

[Tel]

Really? Online play? I kinda thought SNKP would be lazy and just leave out that aspect. Now that changes things significantly. I didn't think a rebalancing was necessary because most home owners would rather play the game the way it works in the arcade anyway.

[Shirakani]

Online, yup. I think all the KOF games since...hrm...2k3? on ps2 have been KDDI Multimatching BB enabled. If not well, it's DEFINETLY in this coz they announced it in that video on the official site.

So yeh...online enabled for sure. KOF MI2 is also online enabled.

[Empyrian]

The S tier just became Suck tier. XD

One needs only to nerf Kula's Dp C and she is balanced somewhat.
Edit: Kula's LDM is already subjected to quite a fair bit of scaling already...

Remove Oswald's LDM's special juggle properties. XD

By giving Gato so much lag, you are NOT returning him to 2k3 version, you just want a punching bag to vent your frustrations fighting the XI's arcade version.

While the PS 2 version *may* have a big player base, it is also true that it is not conducive to competitive play. The least it can do is kill off those who goes to arcades and want to practice combos at home market. If everything is messed up, why bother buying the PS2 version?

If the PS2 version is going to hold big changes, then all comments of PS2 players shall be deemed non consequential in this forum.

Despite your new tier lists, the "omg the game is now balanced" euphoria, the simple fact remains that we are now playing different games.

If that happens, then I suppose a sub forum should be made.

[Shirakani]

While the PS 2 version *may* have a big player base, it is also true that it is not conducive to competitive play. The least it can do is kill off those who goes to arcades and want to practice combos at home market. If everything is messed up, why bother buying the PS2 version?

If the PS2 version is going to hold big changes, then all comments of PS2 players shall be deemed non consequential in this forum.

Despite your new tier lists, the "omg the game is now balanced" euphoria, the simple fact remains that we are now playing different games.

If that happens, then I suppose a sub forum should be made.

I disagree, especially on the 'different game' part.

Another way to look at it is that SNKP originally intended to do such and such from the start, but were under time constraints or things were simply overlooked in loke/beta tests, or whatever reason. During a beta isn't when ppl discover bugs, it's AFTER the game is out and ppl have gotten a chance to learn it.

So, in that way, one can argue that it was never SNKP's intention for the S tier to even be there. It was definetly not their intention to let ANYONE have an infinite, say, but after all we are only human and we make mistakes. Therefore the further rebalance can be argued as what SNKP intended the game to really be. What YOU, as in, the general existing arcade playerbase, prefer is notwithstanding.

When MMO's are out in beta, then certain powerful skills are nerfed to hell later in patches...is it a 'different game' then? It's the same thing. The only difference is that they cannot 'play around' with updates and fix in further patches. You'd better believe that if KOF was purely a PC game designed for online competition, it'd have god knows how many patches by now. Some ppl will agree w/ the changes and others will cry that their favorite scrubwhore abuse-a-move move is gone.

Calling it a 'different game' in this regard is not right, and denying the PS2 players a voice in this forum is even more wrong. It is, in a way, extremely egocentric and elitist in that you're possibly/assumedly saying 'oh, the ones who learnt all the stuff in the arcade are always right coz they were there first!' etc. If that's your attitude toward this all (correct me if i'm wrong), then i'll be the first to say get the hell over yourself and pull your head out of your l33t ass.

If i'm mistaken then i apologize in advance for my tone. But changes, good or bad, need to be accepted and not panned coz ppl dislike change.

[SonicTempest]

Really? Online play? I kinda thought SNKP would be lazy and just leave out that aspect. Now that changes things significantly. I didn't think a rebalancing was necessary because most home owners would rather play the game the way it works in the arcade anyway.

All SNKP PS2 ports since '94 ReBout have had online play, but in Japan only.

I don't know how big their online player base is though. And if people want to use the home version as practice for the arcades, and if tournaments like SBO continue to use the arcade rather than the PS2 version of the game, they are likely to ignore the Arrange gameplay option altogether. At least, that's how I see it.

[Iie-Kyo]

By giving Gato so much lag, you are NOT returning him to 2k3 version, you just want a punching bag to vent your frustrations fighting the XI's arcade version.

He WAS this slow in 2k3. He was still a hell of a monster back then, but he didn't have the high priority crack speed normals and DMs. Instead of automatically assuming something like that, try look at what I did to him other than beating him over the head with the nerf stick. His normals were this "limited" in 2k3. Even his B was slower and suffered greater pushback. In fact, it'll be foolish of SNKP NOT to nerf him seeing how they listened to the fans from 2k3 -> XI and beat Duo Lon over the head with the same nerfstick.

Just kinda funny, nerf an S tier and what you get is a normal character!

[Derrace]

While the PS 2 version *may* have a big player base, it is also true that it is not conducive to competitive play. The least it can do is kill off those who goes to arcades and want to practice combos at home market. If everything is messed up, why bother buying the PS2 version?

If the PS2 version is going to hold big changes, then all comments of PS2 players shall be deemed non consequential in this forum.

Despite your new tier lists, the "omg the game is now balanced" euphoria, the simple fact remains that we are now playing different games.

If that happens, then I suppose a sub forum should be made.

Omg, finally someone decides to voice out..woot! I only play the arcade version, and console versions are only good for practising combos... Last thing I want to do is get all my timings wrong because I am used to the console port timings.

Sure it's good they made adjustments to the game, but it doesn't change the fact that these changes wont be made to the current arcade version. They need to find a way to be able to patch it . or offer "upgraded versions" of the cart for a special price for trading in the old one....

but I am all for a sub forum if anything.. Seeing all this PS2 Chars that wont appear in the arcade is rather annoying.....

[Empyrian]

Shirakani: I don't really care what constraints SNKP had. The fact remains if 2 versions of a game are allowed to be discussed in a single forum, it creates unnecessary complications.

Imagine specifying in all your posts that you are speaking in regards to arcade or PS 2 version.

You'd better believe that if KOF was purely a PC game designed for online competition, it'd have god knows how many patches by now

Again, I don't care how many patches KOF will undergo if they were PC games. Leave the marco/not yet happened stuff to them. The micro stuff, ie, how to practice stuff/moves/combos so I can execute them next time flawlessly. Again, giving me a *NEW* XI = zero incentive to play it.

It is not a case of who comes first = he/she must be right.

Then again, the targeted market is not me, so oh well. XD

Therefore the further rebalance can be argued as what SNKP intended the game to really be. What YOU, as in, the general existing arcade playerbase, prefer is notwithstanding.

Erroneous thinking. Existing player base translates preferences with $. XD

Just kinda funny, nerf an S tier and what you get is a normal character!

You still want to talk about 2k3? Ok.
One thing. 2k3 game speed is slower.
If Gato gets so much lag, he must have something else to compenstate.
Can Gato do stand D, b, C, *2 A in XI? Is Gato's p, A able to grab opponents in the air?

[Slapper Joe]

I'm all for hating on top-tier characters but you can't go take away a whole bunch of powerful things they have. Taking away all the good stuff won't make characters average, it'll make them poor. To compete characters need some strong stuff, just in moderation. Look at GG Ky for a reverse example. Nearly all his poor stuff got toned up slightly in / and he has become a monster.

As for splitting hairs on console vs arcade forums, you've got to wait to see how different before making a call. 3rd Strike Ver.A arcade board (most popular) vs Dreamcast port is a good example. Huge timing issues, frame differences in general and vs crouching/standing opponents, unblockable setups gone, etc. Looking at it like that then you'd say you have to seperate discussion but it wasn't all that nessessary.

It would be in SNKP's best interest to make as few changes to arcade mode as possible. Look at the uproar atm because of GGXX/'s floating dramas on console. And people are still screaming murder because the hugely popular collection packs being released by a load of publishers at the moment still fail to produce arcade perfect ports. Just not worth making major changes.